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Favorite Points
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 3972

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would never remove a favorite point, at least for that reason. Either it's a favorite or it's not. If you want more favorite points to dish out, you have to go caching more often. Wink
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RyanLisaKayla
Geocacher


Joined: 10 Aug 2011

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the primary purposes of favorite points is supposed to be to let other cachers know which are the good (or better) ones to seek out, and an archived cache is one they could never seek out. Also, if a CO is getting a lot of favorite points for a particular cache, they should really try to maintain that one and not archive it in the first place.

And caching more often does not solve the problem because the whole objective is to award favorite points to the top 10% of caches you find. The only real way to build up a good supply is with a power trail, which not everyone likes. I like them and I like building up a supply that I can then award more frequently, but not everyone enjoys power trail caching.
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beagleboo
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Joined: 06 Sep 2007

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Favorite to some, ignore to others.

The owner of the listing will also not see that you are ignoring it.
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dornole
Geocacher


Joined: 03 Apr 2006

Posts: 447

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have tons of extra faves I haven't awarded, for sure not one in 10 go out from me . . . only ones that really gave me a smile, closer to top 2%. I do like the system because if I visit somewhere on vacation, I can sort the list of nearby caches by the number of favorite points and find out what should be on my don't-miss list. When a cache has 50+ favorites it does tend to be pretty good.

I love our cache of the month system (especially to highlight less-trafficked but still outstanding caches) but I haven't had a lot of luck with the local forums in other states to point me toward awesomeness, so favorites fits the bill.
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 3972

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanLisaKayla wrote:
The only real way to build up a good supply is with a power trail, which not everyone likes. I like them and I like building up a supply that I can then award more frequently, but not everyone enjoys power trail caching.


I disagree. The best way to build up enough favorites is to cache often and to only award favorites to those that truly deserve it. I've seen favorites on what I would consider (in my opinion) some of the most benign and unexciting caches. But then I've been around Wink .

At the end of the day I don't care what method you use. But I'd be disappointed if someone un-favorited one of my caches. The favorite is part of the history.
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RyanLisaKayla
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Joined: 10 Aug 2011

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bflentje wrote:
The best way to build up enough favorites is to cache often and to only award favorites to those that truly deserve it. I've seen favorites on what I would consider (in my opinion) some of the most benign and unexciting caches.


Thankfully we are all entitled to our own opinions, and what constitutes a "truly deserving" cache can vary from person to person. Some favorite points are awarded because they bring us to a pretty view or cool park (even though the cache itself may have been unexciting, the location may be the reason for the favorite point), some favorite points are awarded because it was a clever hide or puzzle, some are just because the cache owner really put great care into putting together their cache and/or swag.

The way I see it, any time someone has put forth extra effort to put a smile on my face for any reason deserves recognition for that. Only the most mundane caches (like power trails and run of the mill LPC's) are "less deserving" (won't even use the word undeserving because effort was still put forward to place those caches).

I find that we often don't have enough favorite points to go around to recognize all of the caches we'd like to give credit to, so I end up analyzing what are the top 10% and narrowing down our choices to that set. But, we tend to seek out a higher percentage of favorited caches to begin with (since we travel a lot and have our choice of which caches to go after), so we are skewing our percentage of "good" ones to begin with, and also I naturally have a tendency to seek out the positives rather than focus on the negatives of things, so I can find something to appreciate almost anywhere.

The beauty of the favorite point system is that you can tell how great the cache is likely to be based on the number of favorite points - obviously the more the better, but if it has even a couple, you know that someone likely found some good in it, over one with lots of finds by 0 points. If everyone safeguarded their favorite points only for the spectacular ones, then you would have nothing but 0's and huge numbers, which isn't as valuable of a system, in my opinion...

bflentje wrote:
I'd be disappointed if someone un-favorited one of my caches. The favorite is part of the history.


It depends how and why the cache was archived. Too often caches are archived because the CO has lost interest in the hobby and has stopped maintaining their caches. In that case, they aren't even going to know the favorite point was taken away and they aren't going to miss it. Like I said before, if the CO is still actively in the game, they probably aren't going to archive a local favorite, but of course there are exceptions to that (cache wears out, is being muggled, etc.). In the case where the cache was really spectacular, then that is a case where I'd leave the favorite point even though it was archived, just because I want to remember it anyway. In other cases, it was probably one that some wouldn't consider "truly deserving" anyway...
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Draconisdax
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Joined: 02 Nov 2007

Posts: 978
Location: Southeastern Minnesota

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanLisaKayla wrote:

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It depends how and why the cache was archived. Too often caches are archived because the CO has lost interest in the hobby and has stopped maintaining their caches. In that case, they aren't even going to know the favorite point was taken away and they aren't going to miss it. Like I said before, if the CO is still actively in the game, they probably aren't going to archive a local favorite, but of course there are exceptions to that (cache wears out, is being muggled, etc.). In the case where the cache was really spectacular, then that is a case where I'd leave the favorite point even though it was archived, just because I want to remember it anyway. In other cases, it was probably one that some wouldn't consider "truly deserving" anyway...


To be honest...a favorite point (or the collection thereof) is not going to convince me not to archive a cache. If I feel a cache of mine has run it's course, then it has run it's course and time to try something new.
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bflentje
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Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 3972

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanLisaKayla wrote:
In the case where the cache was really spectacular, then that is a case where I'd leave the favorite point even though it was archived, just because I want to remember it anyway. In other cases, it was probably one that some wouldn't consider "truly deserving" anyway...


But this is my point. If you're rewarding favorites for any other reason other than what you specified in your quote, then, in MY opinion, you're not using the system properly (qualified with, do what you want though). And while I'd be disappointed if you removed a favorite from one of my archived caches, my feelings would not be hurt and I don't lose sleep over it.

Obviously I cache a lot so I have truckloads of favorites stored up. Even so, I refuse to issue favorites for just any old cache. In some respect, it has to standout among the rest.

And in terms of the caches I own? I would not expect a favorite on a cache that wasn't deserving. Of the 300 some odd caches I've hidden, about 100 of them have one or more favorites. The way I play the game, I'd say nearly half of those 100 would not warrant a favorite. On the other hand, I don't get favorites on some of my best hides. Crying or Very sad But to each their own.
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RyanLisaKayla
Geocacher


Joined: 10 Aug 2011

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArcherDragoon wrote:

To be honest...a favorite point (or the collection thereof) is not going to convince me not to archive a cache. If I feel a cache of mine has run it's course, then it has run it's course and time to try something new.


I can see that, and I would have to agree that if one of ours had just a few favorite points, that wouldn't be enough to not archive it when the time comes, but I'm talking more about the really awesome ones - the top ones in the state that have dozens of favorite points. Sure, those can still run their course, but if they are that well loved, it feels like a shame to not let new cachers experience it if at all possible.

Also, I guess my overall point is that if I am the type of CO that cares about my favorite points and the number of them that I have, then I will probably go out of my way to keep those that have them up and running (conceivably to maybe even get more and more points). But if I'm not, then I'm probably not going to miss the points if some people take them away once I archive the cache.
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RyanLisaKayla
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Joined: 10 Aug 2011

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bflentje wrote:
If you're rewarding favorites for any other reason other than what you specified in your quote, then, in MY opinion, you're not using the system properly


And in MY opinion (qualified that we are all entitled to our own), I think the system is designed such that you get 1 point to distribute for every 10 caches found, so that means that you should be awarding points to roughly the top 10% of caches that you have found, not JUST the spectacular ones.

It is like if I were to rank every movie I've ever seen. If there were 1,000 movies that I graded A through F, and I drew a line at the top 100, those would be my "top 100" or top 10% of movies I've ever seen. At the bottom of that 100 might be a movie that I actually ranked a B-, but it is MY top 100.

If 100 other people create their top 100 lists too, it is likely that several of the movies would be the same, but several may be individual to each of us. If you saw that a particular movie made the "top 100" list of all 100 people, then you know that is probably a pretty good movie, but if it only made the top 10% of say 3 people (3 "favorite points"), then it is better than average, but probably not great. And if not 1 out of 100 people said that movie was in their top 10%, then you know that it is probably nothing special at all.

I view favorite points the same. If everyone agreed with you that you should only grant a favorite point to something really spectacular that really stood out, then you only see 2 ends of the spectrum - awesome and 0. Approaching it from more of a top 10% mentality lets people see more of a spectrum of where a cache may fall in the lineup. Maybe only 2 people thought this cache made their top 10% of caches ever found, but 50 people declared this one in their top 10%. It gives the caching community more information rather than an all or nothing approach.

That is also what makes our list of favorites, for me, more of a living breathing thing, versus a permanent historic record. The very first time we ever found a LPC for example, we thought that was the coolest thing ever and probably granted it a favorite point at the time. Later on, after finding hundreds more, we realized that cache probably is not in our top 10% anymore, so I redistributed. It is like if I see a new movie this week that blows the B- one out of the water, then that 100th movie drops out of the list and this new one fits somewhere else in my top 100.

I go through our favorite list every so often to see if they still match up with what we consider to be our top 10%, especially if we want to award a favorite point and have run out. Archived ones are ones I look at first, since I know our favorite point there is no longer helping the caching community, but, like I've said, if it is an A or A+ cache, it gets kept anyway, just for our own personal record.

Anyway, one caveat to all of the above is that I am not saying that people should distribute all of their points to the best of the below average caches just for the sake of using up the points. That would be silly. All of the caches should at least be above average, so there is some wiggle room in the "top 10%", but I think it is kind of unlikely that more than say 92% of caches found would be considered average or below average, keeping in mind that above average does not mean "spectacular", but rather just more than the average run of the mill LPC, street sign, pine tree, etc., cache. There should be SOMETHING to note about it - pretty view, cool container, fun puzzle, something...

In any case, like you said, to each their own.
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tonkaMN
MnGCA Board


Joined: 10 Jun 2009

Posts: 800

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is great that different people have different philosophies on awarding favorite points. Variety is the spice of life. One of the great things about geocaching is that we can all play differently and that's okay.
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RyanLisaKayla
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Joined: 10 Aug 2011

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonkaMN wrote:
I think it is great that different people have different philosophies on awarding favorite points. Variety is the spice of life. One of the great things about geocaching is that we can all play differently and that's okay.


There should be a "like" button on here. Absolutely agree with you.
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bflentje
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Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 3972

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanLisaKayla wrote:
tonkaMN wrote:
I think it is great that different people have different philosophies on awarding favorite points. Variety is the spice of life. One of the great things about geocaching is that we can all play differently and that's okay.


There should be a "like" button on here. Absolutely agree with you.


I don't think anyone here would disagree.
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bflentje
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Joined: 29 May 2006

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanLisaKayla wrote:
And in MY opinion (qualified that we are all entitled to our own), I think the system is designed such that you get 1 point to distribute for every 10 caches found, so that means that you should be awarding points to roughly the top 10% of caches that you have found, not JUST the spectacular ones.


I don't think I personally said I would only assign favs to "spectacular" caches. I only assign favorites to those that are "deserving".

And if I do a 100 stop sign power trail caches, I am not going to award favorites to 10 of those (based on your premise). Now if those were the BEST STOP SIGN caches I'd ever seen? Then yes, I would not hesitate to award a favorite. Wink
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RyanLisaKayla
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Joined: 10 Aug 2011

Posts: 159

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bflentje wrote:
I don't think I personally said I would only assign favs to "spectacular" caches. I only assign favorites to those that are "deserving".


To review, I said:

RyanLisaKayla wrote:
In the case where the cache was really spectacular, then that is a case where I'd leave the favorite point even though it was archived, just because I want to remember it anyway.


To which you said:

bflentje wrote:
But this is my point. If you're rewarding favorites for any other reason other than what you specified in your quote, then, in MY opinion, you're not using the system properly.


which means, if I'm not rewarding favorites for any other reason that it being really spectacular, then I'm doing it wrong, according to you. And I disagree with that. Conversely, I think that anyone that has a ginormous reserve of favorite points probably has too high a standard of what is "deserving" and what isn't. I can find deserving reasons in a lot of different ways, but the ones you consider "deserving" are probably "spectacular" on my scale. You can pick apart semantics if you want, but the point is the same.


bflentje wrote:
And if I do a 100 stop sign power trail caches, I am not going to award favorites to 10 of those (based on your premise).


I believe I already covered that:

RyanLisaKayla wrote:
Anyway, one caveat to all of the above is that I am not saying that people should distribute all of their points to the best of the below average caches just for the sake of using up the points. That would be silly. All of the caches should at least be above average, so there is some wiggle room in the "top 10%", but I think it is kind of unlikely that more than say 92% of caches found would be considered average or below average, keeping in mind that above average does not mean "spectacular", but rather just more than the average run of the mill LPC, street sign, pine tree, etc., cache.



None of this really matters anyway. It is just a hobby and we are all entitled to approach it in whatever way suits each of us best within the context of the rules. I explained why I approach favorite points in a roughly 10% manner and I believe it was most likely designed to be used that way (due to the 1 in 10 allocation of points), but I understand others may approach it differently. I am fine with that unless one of those people Wink starts making statements that "I'm not using the system properly" (in their opinion) when I could easily make the opposite argument (and did in return).
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