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Rochester Hownowners' Association upset with geocachers
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MamaDuck-24
MnGCA Board


Joined: 29 Aug 2009

Posts: 530

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Rochester Hownowners' Association upset with geocachers Reply with quote

I received the following email today:

Rachel Gulczinski sent a message using the contact form at
http://mngca.org/contact.

If this doesn't go to the right place, please forward on. I am president of
my homeowners assocition in Rochester, MN. Today, we had numerous people
tramping all over our lawn, climbing our trees and in short, TRESPASSING
all to find a geocache. Please remind your members to use common sense when
placing and tracking a cache; if your climbing a tree outside someone's
patio or bedroom window, it's a safe bet your on private property and
scaring the heck out of people. Not cool. The location of the cache is: N
44 02.438' W 092 29.962'. The cache has been taken down and destroyed.
Please inform your members that further searching on our property will
result in cars towed and trespassing charges being filed.

I believe the cache in question is "in the Pines," so if you were the ones looking for the cache today, you did not go unnoticed.

Just a friendly reminder to be considerate when geocaching.

Thanks!
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King Boreas
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 2423
Location: Exploring Minnesota

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://coord.info/GC3BH9H
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Arcticabn
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 30 Nov 2003

Posts: 1846
Location: Lakeville, MN

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if the cache is Hide in the Pines, they looking at it on GC.com it does not appear to be located on private property.

The cache is located off a bike/walking trail directly under the power lines.
The closest a set of apartments.

Now I would agree that accessing it by parking in their complex and walking through the trees to the bike trail would be trespassing.
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MamaDuck-24
MnGCA Board


Joined: 29 Aug 2009

Posts: 530

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is part of another email I got from the Association clarifying that it is on private property:

"I appreciate your response, and want to clarify that "in the pines" is actually private property. Once a person steps off the trail and is at the tree line, that is private property. This is according to our own boundary line docs we obtained, from the Rochester property records department, when the trail was under construction. Thank you"

I personally feel that in a case such as this, we archive the cache. Which the cache owner has already done.
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pfalstad
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Feb 2006

Posts: 1007
Location: Edina

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks pretty close to the property line, hard to tell.. https://gis03.co.olmsted.mn.us/Property_Info_Public/OlmstedParcelZoom.aspx?PIN=079800

With no fence and the parking lot right there, I wouldn't be surprised if most people access it from their property...
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rosebud55112
Geocacher


Joined: 03 May 2008

Posts: 121

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that they knew about geocaching and who to contact. That makes me think that at some point there must have been some contact between someone with the HOA and one or more geocachers. However, none of the logs on that cache are DNFs or Finds with any information about a potential conflict with landowners. I assume that whoever spoke with the HOA person explained geocaching, and that's good, but didn't log anything about their encounter. CMon people, log when there is an issue or potential issue too! There well could have been more than one encounter, and proper logging could have prevented the second one and saved us some bad PR.
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Arcticabn
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 30 Nov 2003

Posts: 1846
Location: Lakeville, MN

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The power poles and lines are clearly visible on both the GC.com map and the city plot map. The the resident is wrong, they don't own to the bike path because there is an easement for the pole line.

However, it is not worth getting into a pissing content with them over one cache.
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dornole
Geocacher


Joined: 03 Apr 2006

Posts: 446

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yet another reason to hide more caches deep in nature, out of sight of any homes or passersby. : )
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Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5676
Location: north of Duluth

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arcticabn wrote:
However, it is not worth getting into a pissing content with them over one cache.


I think that's right. Even if the cache is on public property (even if it's placed with explicit permission of the property manager), if it's upsetting the neighbors then it's not worth it. It's bad PR for us, and in the end the cachers will be the losers, regardless of who's in the right. It's not worth it (in my opinion).
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threenow24
Geocacher


Joined: 06 Jun 2010

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dornole wrote:
Yet another reason to hide more caches deep in nature, out of sight of any homes or passersby. : )
I couldn't agree more. When I see where some caches are hidden, i.e., right in plain sight of an apartment complex or across from someone's home, I just continue on my way. I think that's one reason I have no stories to add to another thread on here, "encounters with law enforcement while caching".
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ArcherDragoon
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Nov 2007

Posts: 976
Location: Southeastern Minnesota

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The property may have changed hands...or a new resident moved in...

I talked with a couple of the residents when I found the cache (and yes, I accessed it from the Bike Trail). They thought it was cool and asked for more info about geocaching. They also brought out the Building Supervisor (or what ever title they had)...that person thought it was cool and had no problems with the location.

Otherwise, yes, the problem is most likely people grabbing the cache from the Parking Lot and not the Bike Trail...
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emmanogoldfish
Geocacher


Joined: 26 Oct 2007

Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arcticabn wrote:
The power poles and lines are clearly visible on both the GC.com map and the city plot map. The the resident is wrong, they don't own to the bike path because there is an easement for the pole line.

However, it is not worth getting into a pissing content with them over one cache.


So who owns to the bike trail?

Where is the precedent that a utility easement allows for private use such as in this case Geocaching?

"There is a public understanding and acceptance of the need of public utilities and cable communications systems to have the ability to use existing utility easements and public rights-of-way in order to provide new and improved cable communications services made possible by technological developments and to make changes to the cables or related cable communication systems components."
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Sky King 36
Geocacher


Joined: 09 Apr 2009

Posts: 36

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, it seems like the ship has largely sailed on this issue. Years ago, caching had out-in-the-woods outdoorsmanship as its center of gravity. Caches were hidden, and found, by outdoor enthusiasts. But the last four years or so have brought the advent of urban caching, really a very different sport than "old school" caching.

Used to be the challenge of caching was getting to the GZ. The journey was the important part and the log was really just an incentive, an excuse to take the journey. It used to be about luring people into interesting outdoor experiences in places they may never have otherwise gone.

Now the central challenge of caching has become "how do I hide a very small container in plain sight? How do I make a container so small, and so deceptively camoed, that I can hide it from the public? How can I slip a tiny cache into high-muggle urban public areas, or quasi-private land (like parking lots)? How can I make them so small and deceptive that not even the private landowner knows I hid a cache on their property? I dare say that today, most caches are hidden on private property and most are not hidden with owner permission.

It has evolved into a different game. I'm not sure there's much we can do to turn this around.
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ArcherDragoon
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Nov 2007

Posts: 976
Location: Southeastern Minnesota

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sky King 36 wrote:
To me, it seems like the ship has largely sailed on this issue. Years ago, caching had out-in-the-woods outdoorsmanship as its center of gravity. Caches were hidden, and found, by outdoor enthusiasts. But the last four years or so have brought the advent of urban caching, really a very different sport than "old school" caching.

Used to be the challenge of caching was getting to the GZ. The journey was the important part and the log was really just an incentive, an excuse to take the journey. It used to be about luring people into interesting outdoor experiences in places they may never have otherwise gone.

Now the central challenge of caching has become "how do I hide a very small container in plain sight? How do I make a container so small, and so deceptively camoed, that I can hide it from the public? How can I slip a tiny cache into high-muggle urban public areas, or quasi-private land (like parking lots)? How can I make them so small and deceptive that not even the private landowner knows I hid a cache on their property? I dare say that today, most caches are hidden on private property and most are not hidden with owner permission.

It has evolved into a different game. I'm not sure there's much we can do to turn this around.


There is a way to do something about it...

Hide what you like to find. The fact that the game has become so "mainstream" and popular is a bit of a double-edged sword...many people pay...and many play different way.

If you don't like a particular style...don't find it...if one cannot do that...then don't say much on the log...people start to realize what is "good" and what is "bad"...
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Arcticabn
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 30 Nov 2003

Posts: 1846
Location: Lakeville, MN

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emmanogoldfish wrote:
So who owns to the bike trail?


Either the city or the county probably owns the bike trail.

emmanogoldfish wrote:
Where is the precedent that a utility easement allows for private use such as in this case Geocaching?


Where did I say that it was OK. All I said was that the pole line was visible on both the gc.com map and the plot map and that the boundaries of the apartment were clearly on the other side of the pole line. I never said that the easement was OK to cache on. However, the easement would also in all likelihood belong to either the city or the county and is not private property in the sense of personal private property.
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