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knowschad
Geocacher


Joined: 20 Jun 2005

Posts: 471

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spinowner wrote:
bflentje wrote:
spinowner wrote:
The viability of a website is measured by the number of hits it receives. Those who are concerned about the possible negative ramifications of opencaching would do best to ignore it. If cachers stay away in droves it will eventually dry up or at least be irrelevant.


In addition, if we inundate it with hits and with suggestions about how it should work properly, we might also have some good competition to the frog.


I think making suggestions to the frog would be just as helpful.
The frog hasn't listened to its constituants for years. Known issues remain known issues, frequently asked for enhancements get ignored, meanwhile, we get souveniers and other fluff.

So, from a business standpoint, I concur with the desirability of competition here. I would love to see the frog humbled a bit. But from the geocaching perspective, I can only see trouble coming from this with proximity issues, cross-posted caches, a site that is attracting rule-breakers and banned cachers, and a general lack of control. That sort of free-for-all might have worked for a short time in the early days, where there were only a few cachers, and parks had no idea what it was, but we are far beyond those naive times.
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Jam3s
Geocacher


Joined: 26 Oct 2008

Posts: 842

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

knowschad wrote:

So, from a business standpoint, I concur with the desirability of competition here. I would love to see the frog humbled a bit. But from the geocaching perspective, I can only see trouble coming from this with proximity issues, cross-posted caches, a site that is attracting rule-breakers and banned cachers, and a general lack of control. That sort of free-for-all might have worked for a short time in the early days, where there were only a few cachers, and parks had no idea what it was, but we are far beyond those naive times.


I have a solution to the proximity problem, I am uploading the caches on both sites so that they save the same spots. However, if I ever am not able to plant a cache on GC.com that I really like the idea, location, etc I am just going to place it on OC.com

As to the comment about Garmin owning OC.com, I think that they are just supporting cachers and are not going to make money off OC.com but rather just sell their GPS units. They offer everything on their site and they have the API information. So, I do not think that they are going to be really making money off the site as much as they already do by dominating the market in Geocaching GPSr's.
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4051

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've finally checked out the new site and it is pretty lame. The open-source based OpenCaching.us has much more functionality.
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Jam3s
Geocacher


Joined: 26 Oct 2008

Posts: 842

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bflentje wrote:
I've finally checked out the new site and it is pretty lame. The open-source based OpenCaching.us has much more functionality.


I have to agree, it is fairly lame but I do like that I can import my current caches which helps me.

Also, remember that this is in BETA form, so hopefully it will be developed further. I think that they are just looking to see if people will use it. That is why I decided to grab my username and then also upload all my caches. Also OC.us you still have to have your cache approved. I think that Garmin would like a geocaching site for geocachers and has the money and push to do it.
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4051

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jam3s wrote:
bflentje wrote:
I've finally checked out the new site and it is pretty lame. The open-source based OpenCaching.us has much more functionality.


I have to agree, it is fairly lame but I do like that I can import my current caches which helps me.

Also, remember that this is in BETA form, so hopefully it will be developed further. I think that they are just looking to see if people will use it. That is why I decided to grab my username and then also upload all my caches. Also OC.us you still have to have your cache approved. I think that Garmin would like a geocaching site for geocachers and has the money and push to do it.


Two things.. for a beta, it still sucks. It should be considered just a prototype. Not enough there for me to consider switching. Secondly, I'll use whatever is mainstream. If that remains geocaching.com I am ready to go. If that turns out to be some other site, so be it.
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speedysk1
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 29 Oct 2007

Posts: 1991

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone else hear pandora's box is being opened. It's certainly could only bring us good things.
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knowschad
Geocacher


Joined: 20 Jun 2005

Posts: 471

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speedysk1 wrote:
Anyone else hear pandora's box is being opened. It's certainly could only bring us good things.


Like this? http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?s=&showtopic=265356&view=findpost&p=4559946

Quoting Keystone (reviewer/moderator for Groundspeak)
Quote:

Unlike the last update, which came as a not-so-welcome surprise to me, I have seen a vision of the awesome changes that will roll out next week. I see cache maps like I've never seen them before. I see the cache ratings methodology I've been dreaming (and posting) about for years. I see fun and familiar stats, presented in a way that's both convenient and respectful of the individual's preferences.

I am happy that the upgrade to the latest and greatest turbocharged hardware is mostly behind us. I'm excited about the more noticeable changes that lie ahead. It's like a holiday present, sitting under the tree, waiting to be unwrapped.

I peeked at the present and it's awesome.


And if you want to know more about the stats:
http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=265377
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speedysk1
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 29 Oct 2007

Posts: 1991

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="knowschad"]
speedysk1 wrote:
Anyone else hear pandora's box is being opened. It's certainly could only bring us good things.


Like this? http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?s=&showtopic=265356&view=findpost&p=4559946

Quoting Keystone (reviewer/moderator for Groundspeak)
[quote]


Nope, that was sarcasm. Having worked with parks on geocaching policies, this will only make this harder for me or anyone else that works with parks. As much as people complain about GC.com, it's the best site out there when it comes to making sure the sport is legitimized. With a user base as large as they have someone is going to complain about something. Heck look at these forums with a much smaller user base. People b***h and moan all the time about various things. Parks need 1 source of this information. If this spreads out across lots of sites, the park agencies will then move to becoming the repository of caches. Just what I want, more government control over a GAME!!!!

While competition is generally a good thing, in this case not so much. Anarchy is not going to make parks comfortable with this game we play. The issue is governing bodies make the rules based on a park, not by listing company. So how can chaos and anarchy not be the outcome by OC.us and OC.com? How with all 3 sites determine if they are within compliance of distance rules established by the park systems? Putting pressure on GC.com is not a bad thing, but devolving this into a bunch of cry baby sites is not the answer. People that have the take my toys and leave mentality only cause problems. If GC.com were doing a terrible job, someone will come along to replace them in mass. I don't see that happening here. I think the bulk of members are happy or very happy with GC.com. The vocal people are almost always in the minority vs. the majority. Again, look at these forums. The vocal minority shines. Wink Keep in mind, companies can't snap their fingers and make changes instantly. They have to weigh the pros and cons and prioritize things. Companies will never be able to do everything that everyone wants. It's impossible to please everyone.

OC.xx claims their sites are better because they are free. Sure, let's see how long that lasts. The last time I looked server space, electricity, network usage etc, costs money. So they will have to make money on something to pay for it. Do you want to pay more for your GPS to subsidize the site? Do you want to have a donation button? What about massive annoying ads? What is the best method? Personally I like what GC.com does. My guess is well over 95% of all caches are "free", so that's an invalid argument, and most caches will remain that way. GC also allows people to purchase "premium" features and that is a good thing. Why does everyone assume everything should be free. If you go to a burger joint and order a plain burger, do you expect the burger to come out with cheese and all the trimmings? No, you get what you pay for. As a non-premium member you can still go find caches, which is what this is all about anyway.

So it's not that I'm entirely opposed to real competition to GC.com, but that's not what any of these sites are doing. They are being cry babies because the didn't like some aspect of what GC.com does or did. If they wanted to be true competitors they would do it right and have a full on review process like gc.com. They would have detailed rules and regulations on how to play. Sure, I don't like rules either, but again parks need this to be comfortable with the sport.

So, at the end of the day are you pro-geocaching as a sport or pro-anarchy. If Garmin updates their site to be a true contender than I'll evaluate it again, but how they've gone about it so far will only make this worse for those of use dealing with parks. It's clearly a marketing thing at this point.

Feel free to pick this apart and criticize it. Wink
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knowschad
Geocacher


Joined: 20 Jun 2005

Posts: 471

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in total agreement with you, although you worded it much, much better than I could have. There will be benefits in software features, and perhaps responsiveness to user's requests, but that is the little picture. What you pointed out is the Big Picture. Cool new features on the website will be of little use if we can't hide caches. Thanks for wording that side of the problem so succinctly!
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4051

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speedysk1 wrote:
So, at the end of the day are you pro-geocaching as a sport or pro-anarchy.


Can't we be both, in our own way? Wink

speedysk1 wrote:
If Garmin updates their site to be a true contender than I'll evaluate it again, but how they've gone about it so far will only make this worse for those of use dealing with parks. It's clearly a marketing thing at this point.


Agreed, in its current state, it has no shot. In fact, the OC.us flavor has been around a while and look where it is. To take it a step further, Terracaching has been around for years and it's not exactly giving gc.com a run for their money.

As for your comment earlier about the cost of hosting, while that may be true, Garmin already has that expense to some degree. If it ever got to be as big as gc.com, you can bet your bottom dollar that A) They will follow suit in terms of hardware and platform, and B) It will cost you, either through your handheld hardware or on the website.

But this is no debate, I agree with nearly everything you've pointed out. Especially about the whiners. If you hate whiners, for God's sake, stay away from the national forums. Shocked
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speedysk1
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 29 Oct 2007

Posts: 1991

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just listened to PodCacher's interview with Jake from Garmin. And I couldn't be more disappointed. He repeated Garmin doesn't want to tell people what's right or wrong and other comments like that. Let the "community" decide what's good or bad. And they suggested that having caches listed virtually immediately vs a review was somehow a better process. Wow...Next we will have coffins disguised as geocaches placed in parks. Wink So, I decided I'd do as suggested and head to their forums and I was not really surprised by what I saw. It was a lot of "banned" or members that have gotten in trouble by GS for various things spouting off how great the site is because there are not any rules. On the flip side I think this has spurred Groundspeak to pick up the pace on some features that are often requested, which is good. I like that they will have open APIs to "trusted" 3rd parties. Ok that's fine, they don't want other listing sites to pull in their data. They also will be rolling out an more robust mapping tool. Again, good for everyone. So if you want some amusement or are tired of the mud flinging on groundspeaks forums, head over to opengeocaching.com's forums. They are great. There doesn't seem to be any moderators, so have at it and name call all you want. On Groundspeaks site you can only fling mud, on OC.com's you can fling..well about whatever you want there aren't any rules. Anarchy is the name of the game.

Ok, that was a bit snarky, but I've already seen caches listed that are "too close" to one another. One on one site, one listed on the other. What happens when this is done in a park that we've worked so hard over the years to establish relationships with? In all seriousness are you willing to risk caching being banned because of these other sites? No other site, which is the problem, works harder to keep this game we play around. No other site works with companies to provide tools to play. No other site works harder to ensure the sport is legitimized. So, what is the benefit to having these other sites if they only seem to work to cause problems for most other caches. In other words they are the 1%'ers. I certainly don't agree with Groundspeak on everything they do, but in the end they are the best site. What I fear about this venture with Garmin is they will steer newbies to their site and the cancer that is these other sites and poor practices will only spread.
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4051

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speedysk1 wrote:
Wow...Next we will have coffins disguised as geocaches placed in parks.


This is COMPLETELY uncalled for as my geocache followed every rule and guideline available at the time through geocaching.com. Only I can make hay out of my problems.


Last edited by bflentje on Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kc9gbo
Geocacher


Joined: 26 Jun 2009

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to agree with both sides, but what everyone is fearing to happen has started to down here. We have a local cache hider who placed a couple of caches and found out he was too close to others, so instead of going to retrieve them he left them out and just listed them on OC.com. Same hider last night placed a cache in a rest area in Mn. that I currently have a cache at and I'm monitoring that one closely to see what happens. Have a feeling if it gets pulled from GC it will just show up on Oc. Time will tell, but I don't have a warm happy feeling right now.
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speedysk1
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 29 Oct 2007

Posts: 1991

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bflentje wrote:
speedysk1 wrote:
Wow...Next we will have coffins disguised as geocaches placed in parks.


This is COMPLETELY uncalled for as my geocache followed every rule and guideline available at the time through geocaching.com. Only I can make hay out of my problems.


Laughing Sorry couldn't help that one. I should have timed how fast it took you to reply. Wink
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speedysk1
Past MnGCA Board


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Posts: 1991

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kc9gbo wrote:
Have to agree with both sides, but what everyone is fearing to happen has started to down here. We have a local cache hider who placed a couple of caches and found out he was too close to others, so instead of going to retrieve them he left them out and just listed them on OC.com. Same hider last night placed a cache in a rest area in Mn. that I currently have a cache at and I'm monitoring that one closely to see what happens. Have a feeling if it gets pulled from GC it will just show up on Oc. Time will tell, but I don't have a warm happy feeling right now.


That was what I found as well. The cache hider is very active on geocaching .com, but has a cache listed on OC that is less that 200 feet from another cache. I'm only guessing, but I suspect the same is true, it was denied so the cacher listed it on OC.
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