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More new caching rules - bridges
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EPMinnesota
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 13 Apr 2006

Posts: 1976

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:33 am    Post subject: More new caching rules - bridges Reply with quote

I attempted to place a cache on a street corner in the end of a guardrail that separates the walking area of a bridge from the driving area. Apparently, we are no longer allowed to place caches anywhere even near a bridge which is obviously a new rule because many of us own caches placed on bridges and have found dozens of caches also on bridges. What isn't defined is what is considered "too close". The other thing not defined is what makes it "problematic".

According to the cache listing guidelines:

[quote]A cache may be disabled or archived if...

Cache is problematic due to its proximity to a public structure including and not limited to highway bridges, dams, government buildings, military bases, schools, hospitals, airports and other such locations.[/quote

edit by PH to add "bridges" to the title
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Rustynails
Geocacher


Joined: 27 Oct 2009

Posts: 845

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: More new caching rules Reply with quote

[quote="EPMinnesota"]I attempted to place a cache on a street corner in the end of a guardrail that separates the walking area of a bridge from the driving area. Apparently, we are no longer allowed to place caches anywhere even near a bridge which is obviously a new rule because many of us own caches placed on bridges and have found dozens of caches also on bridges. What isn't defined is what is considered "too close". The other thing not defined is what makes it "problematic".

According to the cache listing guidelines:

Quote:
A cache may be disabled or archived if...

Cache is problematic due to its proximity to a public structure including and not limited to highway bridges, dams, government buildings, military bases, schools, hospitals, airports and other such locations.[/quote


Shocked WOW, this must be some mistake. There are many bridge caches out there. Even bridge series, walk and car bridges. Will they all be archived? Maybe Pearl Head/Fruitcake can give us or the CO more details?
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King Boreas
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 2463

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been a long time since you could place a cache "on" a bridge.
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JJnTJ
Geocacher


Joined: 23 Aug 2010

Posts: 218

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shall I just post copies of our conversations to save you the typing, fruitcake? Very Happy


I worked up a really complex puzzle last December and it was shot down because the hide was so close to a bridge. I should've checked the coords for acceptability beforehand, but that really sucked the enthusiasm out of me for a while.
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EPMinnesota
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 13 Apr 2006

Posts: 1976

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cache I submitted wasn't even on the bridge. Go to google maps and type in Excelsior and Caribou Rd in Minnetonka and look at the street level picture. It was in the end of the guardrail.

How long has it been since you could place caches on bridges? I have caches placed on bridges myself and know of plenty of others in guardrails at the end of bridges that aren't old.
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EPMinnesota wrote:
The cache I submitted wasn't even on the bridge. Go to google maps and type in Excelsior and Caribou Rd in Minnetonka and look at the street level picture. It was in the end of the guardrail.


It appears to be about 30' or so from the bridge abutment, correct? That's "in proximity to a bridge" in my book.

Quote:
How long has it been since you could place caches on bridges?


6+ years.

Quote:
I have caches placed on bridges myself and know of plenty of others in guardrails at the end of bridges that aren't old.


From the guidelines:
Code:
Please be advised that there is no precedent for placing geocaches


What I don't want is a bomb squad to be called out for a bridge (or similar) placement, nor do I want to see someone (a newbie?) arrested at such a location. I understand that these things may happen at any location, but I'd rather avoid it for caches I publish that have guideline issues to begin with -- I'd like to avoid it where possible.

Also understand that each situation is different - what works in one area may not in another. I try and take into account the differences in each listing and make the best decision I can. I may not be consistent with Surfer Joe or other reviewers as everyone looks at the factors differently. Some may allow more to go through than I do, some may allow less.

My goal is to be as consistent as I can and I typically lean on the side of caution.
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spinowner
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Nov 2004

Posts: 619

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the surface these reasons for not having caches on bridges appear to be good ones. Since safety and security are involved, it follows that active caches on bridges pose the same risks. With that as a premise it follows that an SBA note should be posted for any cache within 30 feet (or maybe 50 feet? or 100 feet?) of a bridge.
The phrase "can of worms" comes to mind.
I'm glad I'm not reviewing caches.
_________________
Sig line? I don't need no stinking sig line!
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minnesotabrad
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 03 Mar 2007

Posts: 1268

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I read the guidelines it says highway bridges, many bridges are not highway bridges.
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EPMinnesota
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 13 Apr 2006

Posts: 1976

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting that we have quite a few bridge caches in our neck of the woods. Both in guardrails at the end and right on the bridge itself. They are both puzzles and traditionals. Some even published since this fall. Most published within the last 5 years since I've been caching especially in the past 2 years or so. I've placed caches in the middle of, underneath, next to bridges and they've been approved. Seems rather inconsistent that all of a sudden bridge caches are off-limits.
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spinowner wrote:
On the surface these reasons for not having caches on bridges appear to be good ones. Since safety and security are involved, it follows that active caches on bridges pose the same risks. With that as a premise it follows that an SBA note should be posted for any cache within 30 feet (or maybe 50 feet? or 100 feet?) of a bridge.


If I publish a cache on a highway bridge and you think I missed the fact that is was a highway bridge, my preferred course of action is for someone to send me an email about the cache.

If, while looking for a cache, you get the feeling that the bomb squad will be pulling up any second, you're approached by law enforcement, etc., then by all means log a SBA note. This is (and always has been) up to the individual logging the SBA to use their best judgment. The more information you provide in the SBA note, the better. Email me if you don't want to log a SBA note. Attach pictures if you like.

EPMinnesota wrote:
It's interesting that we have quite a few bridge caches in our neck of the woods. Both in guardrails at the end and right on the bridge itself. They are both puzzles and traditionals. Some even published since this fall. Most published within the last 5 years since I've been caching especially in the past 2 years or so. I've placed caches in the middle of, underneath, next to bridges and they've been approved. Seems rather inconsistent that all of a sudden bridge caches are off-limits.


Here's the way I would look at it:

Do the guidelines allow caches to be published on or near bridges, yes or no?

If no (which I believe to be the case), then why should you expect them to be published? Because they were published in the past?

I don't know why caches on/near bridges were published in the past (ie. I don't know the surrounding circumstances, what the map looks like, etc), nor do I know which caches, nor does it make a difference, nor do I care. I can only read the guidelines and apply them to the best of my ability. I don't fault anyone for publishing caches on/near bridges in the past - it was a decision that they made at the time with the information they had at the time, and I trust that the decision made at the time was correct given the information they had - I have no desire to rehash old decisions.

I don't think you're going to convince me that they should suddenly be published when the guidelines specifically state not to publish them.
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Rustynails
Geocacher


Joined: 27 Oct 2009

Posts: 845

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you now going to ban LPC hides? Most bomb calls are made to these due to high visibility. And many are on private property such as strip malls and other business centers. This also meets your guidelines. Confused Rolling Eyes
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rustynails wrote:
Are you now going to ban LPC hides? Most bomb calls are made to these due to high visibility. And many are on private property such as strip malls and other business centers. This also meets your guidelines. Confused Rolling Eyes


Bridge caches aren't published due to this clause in the guidelines:

http://support.groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=306

Code:
Cache is problematic due to its proximity to a public structure including and not limited to highway bridges, dams, government buildings, military bases, schools, hospitals, airports and other such locations.


I guess I've never considered a light pole to fall into that list of structures. Rolling Eyes

As far as the private property is concerned, I assume that adequate permission has been granted (as the guidelines require).

http://support.groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=304#permission

Code:
By submitting a geocache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location.


If you want to rip into this then have at it; I'm done. Sad
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timewellspent
Geocacher


Joined: 19 Mar 2008

Posts: 724

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Matt has stated his reasons (Groundspeak rules) and we as cachers should respect that. I know I have a couple caches that fall into this area one of which is dead center of the bridge that has made me uncomfortable for awhile now that I was planning to archive. I think this just helped me speed up that decision and as soon as I can get there to pull the cache it will be archived.

I do have one that is on the entrance to a pedestrian bridge that the last reviewer was fine with (he just wanted to make sure there wasn't any cars underneath the hide location.) What are feelings on these types of hides?

-TWS
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

timewellspent wrote:
I do have one that is on the entrance to a pedestrian bridge that the last reviewer was fine with (he just wanted to make sure there wasn't any cars underneath the hide location.) What are feelings on these types of hides?


I originally rejected one on a ped-only bridge over a freeway (I believe). The CO asked me to reconsider, I spoke with some other reviewers, and the feeling was that since it was on a ped-only bridge that it was ok. I did require that it not be over traffic, which there was no issue on and the CO had already taken care of.
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timewellspent
Geocacher


Joined: 19 Mar 2008

Posts: 724

PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MN.Fruitcake wrote:
timewellspent wrote:
I do have one that is on the entrance to a pedestrian bridge that the last reviewer was fine with (he just wanted to make sure there wasn't any cars underneath the hide location.) What are feelings on these types of hides?


I originally rejected one on a ped-only bridge over a freeway (I believe). The CO asked me to reconsider, I spoke with some other reviewers, and the feeling was that since it was on a ped-only bridge that it was ok. I did require that it not be over traffic, which there was no issue on and the CO had already taken care of.


Perfect, thanks!
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