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MN cache reviewing
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4067

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobboTeam wrote:
For the sake of discussion, here are a number of recent Needs Archive logs by me, dating back to early September.

http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2Y43P
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC1DGK9
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4DWJH
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2Y5E7
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC227JK
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC1G03G
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC3425W
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC13K2E


And this is the one I was thinking of with my initial question:
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2V2ZR


Looks like the reviewer notes tell you everything you need to know.
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4067

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobboTeam wrote:
And this is the one I was thinking of with my initial question:
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2V2ZR


I would not have posted a NA on this one, at least not yet. Three DNFs is hardly an indication that it's 100% gone.
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BobboTeam
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Jun 2006

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bflentje wrote:
BobboTeam wrote:
And this is the one I was thinking of with my initial question: http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2V2ZR


Looks like the reviewer notes tell you everything you need to know.


Hunh? There are no reviewer notes on GC2V2ZR, the cache I said I was asking about. I guarantee you that GC2V2ZR is gone. The cache owner has not logged anything since June 2013, and has not responded to direct messages from me about the cache. I included the other links as a matter of full disclosure.

Maybe you wouldn't have logged an archive request, but I did, and I don't regret it. I have no investment in what the reviewer decides, I was concerned only that he or she may not have gotten the note somehow, and that prompted my original question.

I have noticed that this thread has rather quickly become all about critiquing how I play the game. Not very friendly.
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Mrs. Mizzou
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 31 Oct 2007

Posts: 617

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the intention was to critique how you play the game. There was probably some skepticism because of the low number of finds v. high number of problem caches. Often the idea of what needs to be archived or maintained changes after seeing thousands of caches.

In looking at the ones you posted, based on the logs, those were probably caches that most cachers would have ignored/not even attempted which would lower the number of maintenance logs they would post.
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Boreal Walker
Geocacher


Joined: 14 Aug 2008

Posts: 241

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AerosmithPA wrote:
Rather than posting a NEEDS MAINTENANCE, I generally will simply write into the log that the logbook is toast, lid is broken, or whatever. I figure that is fair warning for the CO to do the right thing without the NEEDS MAINTENANCE attribute being attached to the cache.


From a CO stand point: If one of my caches is in need of serious repair work, including unsignable log books; I prefer a NM log. One of the reasons is that it flags it when I filter my GSAK database for problem caches. You can miss stuff in regular found it logs, especially when a cacher cuts and pastes the same log to every cache they found that day.
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me offer my $0.02 here. I'll start this by saying that Gat R Done and I split the workload and this is an area that he typically handles, not I. I have found over time though that we are in initial agreement on 99.9% of the issues that we see and quickly come to agreement on the other 0.1%, so I believe our feelings to be pretty similar.

First, understand that Needs Maintenance logs are between you and the cache owner. The reviewer doesn't normally get involved at that point of the process. From time to time we may look through some of the NM logs and address issues we see but it's not too common.

On very few (I think one although I'm not sure) of the caches that you posted a NA log on you offered no indication that you actually searched for the cache. There are very few, if any, DNF logs from you on the caches you provided links for. If the cache isn't there and you know it, at least start with a DNF log or other indication that you searched for the cache.

In most of the links you provided the cache was disabled and/or archived by Gat R Done, so I'm already confused about the issue at large. Is this over one or two NA logs that weren't responded to?

We look at a lot of factors when looking at a NA log. We look at the past DNF logs, including who the DNF loggers were and their caching experience, sometimes the past found logs, the cache location and it's history, the cache difficulty and description, perhaps notes that the cache owner gave us when the cache was submitted for review, etc. For caches that appear to be missing we often will err on the side of caution and leave the cache page alone if we think there's a possibility that it's still in play. I think over time Gat R Done and I have both archived caches that were actually still in play, much to the dislike (understandably) of the cache owners.

Keep in mind that if the reviewer doesn't necessarily agree that immediate action is warranted that he probably won't post or do anything. I know for me I'll often place the cache on my watch list to see what happens over the near future and I believe Gat R Done does the same. We do not post a note to the cache page or email you if we feel no action is warranted.

The cache owner isn't required to respond to your emails about maintenance requests, requests for information, etc. While it is helpful to put the that that you emailed them and they didn't respond in the NA log, it doesn't mean that it's an automatic archive.

Also, I'm not aware of us ever 'missing' a Needs Archived log. One is sufficient. If things have changed since the first one (ie. you feel the situation warrants another NA log) then post one, but otherwise back to back NA logs do nothing but increase our workload. The decision is likely to be the same.
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BobboTeam
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Jun 2006

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My original reason for asking the question was this:

I posted more than two "Needs Archived" logs at about the same time on different caches. In all cases but one, the reviewer left a note of some sort on the cache page. In one case, no note, no action. I was concerned that somehow it was overlooked. So, several weeks later, I decided to ask other players about how and why that may have happened, and whether and how I might follow up to learn why.

I've been told not to worry about. So I won't. It should have been that simple.


In direct response to you MN.Fruitcake, first of all thanks for the long reply. Number one, you are correct, in every case it seems my NA logs were appreciated, and that the review resulting in some action, even if that action was to take no action. In every case but one, the reviewer left a note on the cache page. I listed all the others to demonstrate those circumstances which cause me to log a "Need Archived". Because the reviewer's actions were not consistent, I wanted to know more.


There is one thing I would ask you to clarify please. I do not see why my DNF log (or lack thereof) would factor into an "Needs Archived" review. Here is a real-life example to demonstrate my thinking on this:

This story starts in late July, and ended a week ago. I arrived at ground zero and hunted for a bit. After a minute or three I located where the cache was hidden: A rotting railroad tie with voids and cavities that was part of a retaining wall. It is immediately obvious that a groundskeeper ran over the end of the railroad tie with a large landscaping mower, crushing it. There were bits of wood everywhere, and I could tell by the color and the smell it happened quite recently. I also found one small bit of plastic that may or may not have been the container, and there were a number of shredded bits of lined, waterproof paper with different colors of water-smudged ink on it, what little I could read looked like a list of dates each followed by one or two words—no doubt the cache log. That is not a DNF to me. I found the cache, but I could not sign the log. I certainly don't get a "Found" either. So, I logged a "Needs Maintenance" request to the cache owner. No reply. Another cacher logged a NM a few days later. More than five weeks later, a third cacher logged a NM. At some point in there I sent the cache owner a person message about it, and received no reply. Finally, I logged a "Needs Archived" log. Very shortly thereafter, the reviewer temporarily disabled the cache (same day actually), and made notice that 30 days later it would be archived. That is what happened, about 30 days later.

As far as I can see, that is exactly the way the game should be played. The only place we seem to differ is that you are suggesting if I find an empty, broken piece of plastic on the ground marked Geocache, I should log a DNF. I respectfully disagree. I didn't NOT find it. I found it, and I found that it unquestionably needed maintenance. And that is what I logged, in hopes of helping other players, as well as the cache owner of the actual circumstances.

This is the cache being described here: http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2GTDB

As you see, it all happened as it should.


Lastly, I was on the ground and searched for every single one of the caches I logged. I resent any implication that I wasn't.
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobboTeam wrote:
There is one thing I would ask you to clarify please. I do not see why my DNF log (or lack thereof) would factor into an "Needs Archived" review. Here is a real-life example to demonstrate my thinking on this:

This story starts in late July, and ended a week ago. I arrived at ground zero and hunted for a bit. After a minute or three I located where the cache was hidden: A rotting railroad tie with voids and cavities that was part of a retaining wall. It is immediately obvious that a groundskeeper ran over the end of the railroad tie with a large landscaping mower, crushing it. There were bits of wood everywhere, and I could tell by the color and the smell it happened quite recently. I also found one small bit of plastic that may or may not have been the container, and there were a number of shredded bits of lined, waterproof paper with different colors of water-smudged ink on it, what little I could read looked like a list of dates each followed by one or two words—no doubt the cache log. That is not a DNF to me. I found the cache, but I could not sign the log. I certainly don't get a "Found" either. So, I logged a "Needs Maintenance" request to the cache owner. No reply. Another cacher logged a NM a few days later. More than five weeks later, a third cacher logged a NM. At some point in there I sent the cache owner a person message about it, and received no reply. Finally, I logged a "Needs Archived" log. Very shortly thereafter, the reviewer temporarily disabled the cache (same day actually), and made notice that 30 days later it would be archived. That is what happened, about 30 days later.

As far as I can see, that is exactly the way the game should be played. The only place we seem to differ is that you are suggesting if I find an empty, broken piece of plastic on the ground marked Geocache, I should log a DNF. I respectfully disagree. I didn't NOT find it. I found it, and I found that it unquestionably needed maintenance. And that is what I logged, in hopes of helping other players, as well as the cache owner of the actual circumstances.

This is the cache being described here: http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2GTDB


In this case though your NM log does indicate that you searched for the cache, even though you didn't log a DNF. In some of the other caches I looked at you didn't indicate that you searched for the log - instead it looked like you 'armchaired' the NA log. While I understand (now) that you were at GZ for all caches involved, it didn't look that way from the cache logs. Armchair NA logs (those being logs that people post without actually visiting GZ) receive a lot less interest from us. Not to say that they are ignored (they aren't), but the credibility of the NA goes way up when you're at GZ.

Whether you log a DNF, a note, a NM, whatever, is up to you.

Quote:
Lastly, I was on the ground and searched for every single one of the caches I logged. I resent any implication that I wasn't.


Sounds good. My point here being that a NM/NA doesn't automatically imply that someone was on the ground, so without the accompanying DNF or note, or text in the NM/NA log, we don't jump to that conclusion.
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BobboTeam
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Jun 2006

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MN.Fruitcake wrote:
On very few (I think one although I'm not sure) of the caches that you posted a NA log on you offered no indication that you actually searched for the cache. There are very few, if any, DNF logs from you on the caches you provided links for. If the cache isn't there and you know it, at least start with a DNF log or other indication that you searched for the cache.


Go back and look again at the nine links I posted. I logged clear and unambiguous notes that a ground search was done for six of those logs. So I can see in retrospect that three out of nine of those were ambiguous.

But, I would ask that you get your facts correct before making accusations. Two-thirds in a sample can hardly be described as "very few, if any".

Again, I searched on the ground for all of them. Why on earth would anyone post a log for a cache they have not visited and searched for?


I'm going to keep playing this game the way I have been playing it. This little "adventure" has definitely made me rethink my interest in getting more involved with the MnCGA forums, though.
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobboTeam wrote:
MN.Fruitcake wrote:
On very few (I think one although I'm not sure) of the caches that you posted a NA log on you offered no indication that you actually searched for the cache. There are very few, if any, DNF logs from you on the caches you provided links for. If the cache isn't there and you know it, at least start with a DNF log or other indication that you searched for the cache.


Go back and look again at the nine links I posted. I logged clear and unambiguous notes that a ground search was done for six of those logs. So I can see in retrospect that three out of nine of those were ambiguous.

But, I would ask that you get your facts correct before making accusations. Two-thirds in a sample can hardly be described as "very few, if any".


You are correct - I did not have my facts straight. In a couple of cases I simply didn't scroll down enough to see the DNF logs. My apologies.

Quote:

Again, I searched on the ground for all of them. Why on earth would anyone post a log for a cache they have not visited and searched for?


I don't know why people do it, but it's done.
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4067

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobboTeam wrote:
I'm going to keep playing this game the way I have been playing it. This little "adventure" has definitely made me rethink my interest in getting more involved with the MnCGA forums, though.


Come on dude. The only one worked up here is you. I merely offered my opinion on the one cache. You don't like my style so took it as a slam?? Rolling Eyes
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AustinMN
Geocacher


Joined: 21 Mar 2012

Posts: 114

PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobboTeam wrote:
Why on earth would anyone post a log for a cache they have not visited and searched for?


This is the internet. People are anonymous. People do all kinds of wrong stuff. We have all heard of people posting a thousand or more finds in a day. If they cached for 24 hours straight, that would be a cache every 86 seconds. So now you have someone who is not only posting a log for a cache they never found, but for a whole bunch of caches they never found.
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Copaman
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 25 May 2011

Posts: 275

PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobboTeam wrote:
Why on earth would anyone post a log for a cache they have not visited and searched for?


Check out this list of finds for a cacher named "Impossible Idiots" from Germany for 4/10/2013. All these finds in one day in Hong Kong, Germany, Texas, Pennsylvania, Kansas, Colorado, and others. Either dude has a teleportation portal or he's armchairing these finds.
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BobboTeam
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Jun 2006

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I offer sincere thanks for the attempt to offer insight. Sadly, I am well aware there are people out there who get an ego charge by pretending to play the game of Geocaching and falsely logging caches and travel bugs. I had a travel bug that went missing for a year, and then it suddenly reappeared and was allegedly dipped into caches in Canada, French Guiana, China, and Iraq—all in fewer than twelve days. I deleted those logs and marked it as missing, and presume someone had successfully guessed at the TB log code.


What I really meant to be asking is: Why on earth would anyone report a Needs Maintenance or Needs Archived log for a cache they had not actually visited?

If I am honest, what I really meant was: Why would the default reaction by reviewers and others on this forum be an assumption that a journeyman geocacher (seven years and a thousand caches) is reporting false or alarmist log entries? I would prefer to have been treated to a presumption of innocence—or rather informed earnest.

Ironically, I've made only two real attempts to participate on these forums. The other was to contribute my own perspective on logging etiquette. http://mngca.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7283&start=15
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tonkaMN
MnGCA Board


Joined: 10 Jun 2009

Posts: 945

PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobboTeam wrote:
I've made only two real attempts to participate on these forums.


I hope you continue to participate in the forums. Don't let snide comments by someone keep you away. Sometimes people are just really short when it comes to responding online and they appear to be insulting when that isn't what they really meant. Some of the people that appear to be really rude on the forums are really nice when you speak with them in person.

Active discussion on here is good for everyone. We appreciate your input, even though we don't all act like we do Smile
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