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MN cache reviewing
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NeverSummer
Geocacher


Joined: 20 Feb 2009

Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, guys. I'm wondering what process, if any, you have in place for following up on "Needs Maintenance" logs. I've seen reviewers in the past PQ all of the NM caches in the area, and help owners know how to clear the attribute if the cache is "ok", and to hop to it to get caches maintained if they are not "ok". I don't want to post a "Needs Archived" log on caches that need attention, but contacting owners doesn't have a good return rate. Thanks for clarifying any processes you have.
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeverSummer wrote:
Hey, guys. I'm wondering what process, if any, you have in place for following up on "Needs Maintenance" logs. I've seen reviewers in the past PQ all of the NM caches in the area, and help owners know how to clear the attribute if the cache is "ok", and to hop to it to get caches maintained if they are not "ok". I don't want to post a "Needs Archived" log on caches that need attention, but contacting owners doesn't have a good return rate. Thanks for clarifying any processes you have.


Right now there isn't a process for that. I've been of the opinion that "Needs Maintenance" logs are a function for the cache owner and "Needs Archived" logs are a function for the reviewer.

That's not to say that we don't use the NM logs when looking at a cache that has some issues, nor does it mean that I don't occasionally peruse the caches that have the NM flag set, but at this time there's no process for the reviewer to handle those caches. That could change down the road, although it's not on *my* short-term agenda.

I have had a few different times when I've looked at a self-generated list of caches that had issues (defined usually by either the NM flag or a high number of recent DNFs), but it's not a regular thing I do.
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NeverSummer
Geocacher


Joined: 20 Feb 2009

Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha. So is there a process you prefer for reporting caches? I mean, if I can't find a cache (repeatedly) and try to contact the owner and they don't respond, and the cache is clearly not there (like a missing <2/2 or similar), what should we seekers do?

There are some caches I have personally come across that I'd love to adopt, or I'd like to possibly use the location. I hate to report a cache without being able to communicate with an owner. But, sometimes the owner doesn't respond, or hasn't logged in for a long time.

I understand that it is an added task to your already packed volunteer Reviewer job, but I've seen it work very, very well in the past. It certainly helps to improve the quality of the caches in the area. If the cache owner isn't maintaining their cache, I don't want to post a "NA". But, if the cache owner continues to neglect a NM log, not only are people going to not want to seek that attribute, but also occupies a space that could be used by cachers who can be "responsible" owners.

Now that there are 2 Reviewers, it could also become a less time-consuming task to undertake. I don't mean to step on your toes here, but the NM log and an unremoved attribute are more than just about the owner. It affects PQs, field searching, appearance of cache quality for visitors, and more for other cachers. Also, a NM log that goes uncleared or does not end up in maintenance can end up making more NA logs on caches that could stay alive if for a little nudge from an authority.

In addition, many new cachers are unaware of how to clear a NM log from the attributes. Reviewer involvement can help educate geocachers across MN learn, and also learn to keep an elevated level of maintenance on their caches.

JM2C. I'd be interested in the discussion. Believe me, if Groundspeak contacted me and asked if I'd be the VR to handle NM logs, I would do it. But I'm just a lowly PM. Laughing
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pfalstad
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Feb 2006

Posts: 1009
Location: Edina

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a cache is clearly missing with the CO AWOL, I'll report it to the reviewer so he can disable the cache. Then there's a process in place to have it archived in a few months. I don't bother with NM because nobody looks at it. I had problems with a cache owner once after doing a NA on his cache, so Moe SJ told me to email problems directly to him. Not sure how the new guys like to run things. Smile I remember there have been discussions in the past about forcibly adopting a cache; I don't think it's allowed.

Last edited by pfalstad on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeverSummer wrote:
Gotcha. So is there a process you prefer for reporting caches? I mean, if I can't find a cache (repeatedly) and try to contact the owner and they don't respond, and the cache is clearly not there (like a missing <2/2 or similar), what should we seekers do?


You can post a Needs Archived log.

Here's what happens when a needs archived log is posted:

The reviewer looks at the cache page in question. They'll look at things like the past log history (what the found logs says as well as what the DNF logs say). If it sounds like an easy cache that suddenly has 10 DNFs and no finds then it's probably an issue. If it sounds like a difficult cache that suddenly has 3 DNFs then it may not be an issue.

IF the reviewer is in agreement that there's a good chance that the cache isn't there (or it needs some sort of attention), then the normal action would be to disable the listing and give the owner a month to take action, after which point the listing is archived by the reviewer (assuming no action is taken). If the reviewer isn't in agreement then he/she may bookmark the listing to keep an eye on it and future logs that come in, or may just dismiss the NA log - it all depends on the situation.

If the situation is not a maintenance situation but something different (the cache violates a guideline such as being nailed to a tree or buried, or it's on private property without permission), then the reviewers response may change some (it may be disabled with an email sent to the cache owner or it may be immediately archived).

I can tell you that it's important to log DNFs on a cache page - the reviewer will use this information when assessing the cache page. Personally, I don't put any value in the date of the last 'found' log if there's no information since then. For example, if the last 'found' log was 4/1/11, and then today someone posted a NA log on the cache, with no other logs between 4/1/11 and today, then my brain tells me that the cache hasn't been searched for in 7 months - that's not a reason to archive it. For me, cache owner activity isn't a relevant part of the decision either.

Quote:
There are some caches I have personally come across that I'd love to adopt, or I'd like to possibly use the location. I hate to report a cache without being able to communicate with an owner. But, sometimes the owner doesn't respond, or hasn't logged in for a long time.


Cache adoption requires the owner's intervention. This is something that I don't have any control over.

pfalstad wrote:
I had problems with a cache owner once after doing a NA on his cache, so Moe told me to email problems directly to him.


My preference is to keep the NA logs on the cache page, but I can also understand (and accept) the desire to remain anonymous in some situations. In those cases, emailing a reviewer does work as well.

We'll take the idea of addressing NM logs under consideration, but at this point it will take a little while. There needs to be a line drawn in the sand for where the owner is responsible and where the reviewer is needed - Groundspeak has arbitrarily set that line at between NM and NA by setting up a system to notify the reviewer when a NA log is posted and not when a NM log is posted.
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4015

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always honor a NM log on my caches by putting time into checking them out, even when they're totally BS.
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NeverSummer
Geocacher


Joined: 20 Feb 2009

Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoopsy

Last edited by NeverSummer on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NeverSummer
Geocacher


Joined: 20 Feb 2009

Posts: 99

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MN.Fruitcake wrote:

We'll take the idea of addressing NM logs under consideration, but at this point it will take a little while. There needs to be a line drawn in the sand for where the owner is responsible and where the reviewer is needed - Groundspeak has arbitrarily set that line at between NM and NA by setting up a system to notify the reviewer when a NA log is posted and not when a NM log is posted.


Hey, that's all a guy can ask for. Wink
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Draconisdax
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Nov 2007

Posts: 982
Location: Southeastern Minnesota

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MN.Fruitcake wrote:
NeverSummer wrote:
Hey, guys. I'm wondering what process, if any, you have in place for following up on "Needs Maintenance" logs. I've seen reviewers in the past PQ all of the NM caches in the area, and help owners know how to clear the attribute if the cache is "ok", and to hop to it to get caches maintained if they are not "ok". I don't want to post a "Needs Archived" log on caches that need attention, but contacting owners doesn't have a good return rate. Thanks for clarifying any processes you have.


Right now there isn't a process for that. I've been of the opinion that "Needs Maintenance" logs are a function for the cache owner and "Needs Archived" logs are a function for the reviewer.

That's not to say that we don't use the NM logs when looking at a cache that has some issues, nor does it mean that I don't occasionally peruse the caches that have the NM flag set, but at this time there's no process for the reviewer to handle those caches. That could change down the road, although it's not on *my* short-term agenda.

I have had a few different times when I've looked at a self-generated list of caches that had issues (defined usually by either the NM flag or a high number of recent DNFs), but it's not a regular thing I do.

I am fine with the NA posts and reviewers using those notifications as that is a process currently in place. Sorting/Requesting NM logs seems like an extra step that isn't needed if cachers use the tools that are currently in place.
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You may only be young once...but I will be immature forever!!!
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Gat R Done
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 29 Dec 2011

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, after a couple weeks of reviewing and publishing many of your caches, we all survived. And I Thank everyone for their patience.

A couple things that came up quite often were: Caches submitted that were less than 528 feet apart and waypoint usage for multis and puzzles.

Proximity to an existing cache: First of all, make sure you click the link labeled "find Nearest Caches" and make sure yours is at least 0.10 miles away from any others. You may miss Puzzles or Multi's, but that's where we will help. There are still quite a few being sent in for review where proximity to an existing Traditional cache is less than 0.10 mile (528 feet). And even if a cache is currently inactive, you still need to be 0.10 mile away from it.

Caches listed as Puzzles: You need to enter the coordinates for your final location as a "Waypoint" even if it's at the posted coordinates for Challenge caches. If you don't enter a Final, we will send it back to you for editing. If there is anything at the posted coordinates you placed there that seekers need to use for your puzzle, a waypoint (stage 1 or reference point) will also need to be added. Please include something in the Reviewer Notes stating what that physical item is. These waypoints are all hidden unless there is some reason you want people to see them.

Also, please include information in a Reviewer Note about how to solve and obtain a set of coordinates from your puzzle if the solution is not obvious like a Sudoku, etc. We need this information to make sure the puzzle meets the cache guidelines. Reviewer Notes are archived when your cache is published.

Caches listed as Multi-caches: Here is where there is some confusion. First, you need a final waypoint (hidden). Next comes the stages or reference points (normally hidden). If there is physical item at a location that wasn't pre-existing, it is a 'stage' of the multi-cache or puzzle. These stages all will need to be 528 feet from physical stages of other cache listings. Please include something in the Reviewer Notes stating what that physical item is. If whatever you use for a stage was there before, it is a 'virtual' or 'reference' point to the multi or puzzle. In these cases you will have something on the cache page telling how to use the information gathered at that site and convert it to numbers.

Here is a link to the Guidelines further explaining this: Number 7 . The Cache Saturation Example explains this quite well.

One comment about having your cache disabled when a question is asked or something needs editing: Don't be concerned/annoyed/etc. when your cache is disabled and you need to enable it after resolving an issue. This process is the most efficient way for us to find out that you have addressed the issues. As a player/hider, this process bothered me a little, but now I see why it is necessary.

Thank You for all your contributions to Geocaching.


Last edited by Gat R Done on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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dornole
Geocacher


Joined: 03 Apr 2006

Posts: 457

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So now I read the guidelines and all I can think about is that there is a cache on the International Space Station. Terrain 5 difficulty 5 . . .
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navychief98
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Sep 2011

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:57 pm    Post subject: MN Cache Reviewing Reply with quote

My hat is off to you MN: Fruitcake for your diligent work to make this game a great game! Thank you.
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navychief98
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Sep 2011

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: MN Cache Reviewing Reply with quote

My hat goes off to you too Gat R Done...thanks for everything you do to make this game a great game. Thank you.
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Gat R Done
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 29 Dec 2011

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone has any caches they want published on 2-29-12, they need to be enabled this weekend to allow time for review.

Be sure to include a Reviewer Note with the requested publish date and 'approximate' time. After review, you will get an email with the schedule information. If anything is incorrect, email the reviewer immediately.
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King Boreas
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 2438
Location: Exploring Minnesota

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A film canister/test strip container is tucked into the "groove" of a standard signpost. The top of the container is at, or very near ground level. It has minimal local camo material covering it.

Is this cache "buried" Question
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