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Skirt Lifters in a Parking Lot
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spinowner
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Nov 2004

Posts: 586

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify, I am in the implicit camp regarding public property and the explicit camp regarding private property.
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Jam3s
Geocacher


Joined: 26 Oct 2008

Posts: 842

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pear Head wrote:
Jam3s wrote:
The Melrose Police Dept has decided to make sure that all the cachers have permission for EVERY cache placed. Skirtlifters and all.

I think that 80% of all caches placed do not have permission. When I spoke to the Parks Dept of Saint Cloud had told me that they do not want any caches in their parks. We have a lot of them because the police dept is fine with it, but then who is really in charge? Police say do it, parks say no... I see the police as the governing authority although I do not have any caches in the Saint Cloud parks. Mine are in Stearns County Parks where they love caching. Although, I do have one skirtlifter that someone placed and I am the person that has it under my account because I am closer to check on the cache.


If this is St. Cloud's official policy then it would seem appropriate for the MnGCA board to make introductions.

Of the three different entities you mention, do any have published policies, or is it just word of mouth?


I met with the Parks Director in Saint Cloud, Kurt met with the Police and I also spoke with a training officer. I know three cachers that met with the Melrose Police. I know that they do not have a written statement about geocaching, but they do have a statement about leaving stuff in parks. Melrose Police and Saint Cloud Police do not have a problem with the parks and Saint Cloud Parks Dept said that they do not want them in their parks.

Also, I have seen people assuming that because it is public land that it is okay not to get permission. Bart has is living proof verifying that thought does not work. This is why I am becoming a LOT more careful as to where I am placing a cache. And so, again I stand by my statement:

MOST caches do not have permission.
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Kurt Franke
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 22 Sep 2005

Posts: 412

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify, a couple months back, when we had the geocache bomb scare in Saint Cloud, I met with both the Police Departments Public Information Officer and the City Parks Director. The PD didn't seem to care about geocaching at all and the Park Director was happy I took the time to speak with him.

Parks knows there are caches in many of the parks. I have spoken to the Director several times about his. We even did a CITO this Spring after the incident and I emailed with some photos and our Thanks.

I am not sure that Saint Cloud Parks cares about geocaches. I was a member of the Park Board for 3 years, 2004-2007. It has never been a issue one way or the other here, unless things have changed in the last couple months.

Kurt Franke
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Kurt Franke
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 22 Sep 2005

Posts: 412

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and to get back on topic, I have a Skirt Lifter in Saint Cloud and it is The Worst.

Kurt
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Jam3s
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Joined: 26 Oct 2008

Posts: 842

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kurt Franke wrote:
...and to get back on topic, I have a Skirt Lifter in Saint Cloud and it is The Worst.

Kurt
.
And it is an awesome skirtlifter. When I spoke to the park director I was asking about an earthcache (which he was ok with) but the he said that they did not want caches on park property. I know that they have to know they have caches, but that is just what he said...
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knowschad
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Joined: 20 Jun 2005

Posts: 470

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spinowner wrote:
bflentje wrote:
I strongly disagree.


I strongly agree to strongly disagree. No cache should be hidden on any privately owned property without explicit permission of the property owner. Assuming for any reason that it's OK to do so is not OK.


In my original posting, I said:

Quote:
They then go on to say that, if they have the right to park their car there, and to walk around there, that they have adequate permission to cache there.


I assume this implicit permission is what is now being referred to as "don't ask, don't tell", and from there it is being inferred that it implies that I can place a cache in your front yard. I think that's a bit of a stretch.
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spinowner
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Joined: 25 Nov 2004

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

knowschad wrote:
From what I've seen, the argument that most LPC hiders use, (whether right or not), is that the guidelines say that the hider must have *adequate* permission, not *explicit* permission. They then go on to say that, if they have the right to park their car there, and to walk around there, that they have adequate permission to cache there.

The adequate permission argument is used in many other situations as well... I'd venture to guess that it is used in MOST caches where there are not explicit park rules for hiding a cache.


In my very humble opinion this is an argument based on a false premise. Regarding parking, etc., on private property, it is not the case that they have the RIGHT to do these things. The fact is that the property owners implicitly grant them the PRIVILEGE to do those things. There is a huge legal difference.

And as long as I'm posting I'll allow that I exaggerated in my comment about hiding a cache in someone's front yard. Of course, nobody else would ever use hyperbole to emphasize a point they are trying to make. Wink

In all seriousness, though, I would like to entertain further discussion on where to draw the line on the acceptability of private property hides. My opinion that every such hide should require explicit advance permission is obviously not universally held. I'd like to hear EXACTLY where others feel the line should be drawn and why.
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Jam3s
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds like a great idea! Lets do a parked car cache! Park a car in a parking lot and leave it unlocked. See how many people would be willing to open a car door, get in, sign a log, and then just walk away... I am sure it would work in a parking lot! We could move it back and forth from one parking spot to the next so it would only move 5 or 10 feet every time so the coords would be good!
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bflentje
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Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4041

PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spinowner wrote:
knowschad wrote:
From what I've seen, the argument that most LPC hiders use, (whether right or not), is that the guidelines say that the hider must have *adequate* permission, not *explicit* permission. They then go on to say that, if they have the right to park their car there, and to walk around there, that they have adequate permission to cache there.

The adequate permission argument is used in many other situations as well... I'd venture to guess that it is used in MOST caches where there are not explicit park rules for hiding a cache.


In my very humble opinion this is an argument based on a false premise. Regarding parking, etc., on private property, it is not the case that they have the RIGHT to do these things. The fact is that the property owners implicitly grant them the PRIVILEGE to do those things. There is a huge legal difference.

And as long as I'm posting I'll allow that I exaggerated in my comment about hiding a cache in someone's front yard. Of course, nobody else would ever use hyperbole to emphasize a point they are trying to make. Wink

In all seriousness, though, I would like to entertain further discussion on where to draw the line on the acceptability of private property hides. My opinion that every such hide should require explicit advance permission is obviously not universally held. I'd like to hear EXACTLY where others feel the line should be drawn and why.


I think the line should be drawn on what is now currently "generally" accepted. The LPC premise with implicit, no matter how lame, works, and planting a cache in someone's front yard is probably not a good idea unless you have explicit. Aside from trying to change someone's opinion, not sure what else needs to be said.
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MrRogersNghbor
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Oct 2008

Posts: 230

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jam3s wrote:
That sounds like a great idea! Lets do a parked car cache! Park a car in a parking lot and leave it unlocked. See how many people would be willing to open a car door, get in, sign a log, and then just walk away... I am sure it would work in a parking lot! We could move it back and forth from one parking spot to the next so it would only move 5 or 10 feet every time so the coords would be good!



This would never work but would seriously be one of the funnest caches EVER! I would love to set up a spy cam to watch people's reactions as they approach GZ.
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Jam3s
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Joined: 26 Oct 2008

Posts: 842

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrRogersNghbor wrote:
Jam3s wrote:
That sounds like a great idea! Lets do a parked car cache! Park a car in a parking lot and leave it unlocked. See how many people would be willing to open a car door, get in, sign a log, and then just walk away... I am sure it would work in a parking lot! We could move it back and forth from one parking spot to the next so it would only move 5 or 10 feet every time so the coords would be good!



This would never work but would seriously be one of the funnest caches EVER! I would love to set up a spy cam to watch people's reactions as they approach GZ.


I wonder what parking lot we could set it up at. We need something with an online webcam / security cam. Might be pretty cool!
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GreenLantern5000
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Joined: 05 Jul 2009

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The parked car is a very interesting idea, but I think people would be pissed if you tried to open their car next to the cache-car, while trying to figure out what vehicle the cache was hidden in.... LOL
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Jam3s
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might get even more interesting... is that what you are saying?
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Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5699

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreenLantern5000 wrote:
The parked car is a very interesting idea, but I think people would be pissed if you tried to open their car next to the cache-car, while trying to figure out what vehicle the cache was hidden in.... LOL


That's the biggest reason I'm not fond of people having caches at their house inside of cities. You're never really sure which side of that fence you're supposed to be on. Are you in the friendly cachers yard (with permission), or the grumpy, gun-toting, pit bull fanatics yard (without permission)?
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pfalstad
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Joined: 02 Feb 2006

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pear Head wrote:
There are numerous caches out there that I'm not fond of at all, for various reasons (difficulty, puzzle obscureness, ...

Shocked
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