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virtual caches
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we all know virtual caches are easy ways to add to the cache total. if given a choice between visiting 2 virtual sites that are otherwise equal, which would you prefer?
one that takes 10 seconds to complete
16%
 16%  [ 2 ]
one that asks me to explore the site for 5 minutes in order to complete it
83%
 83%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 12

Author Message
hardware
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marsha&Bob wrote:
*WE* don't have any opinion that MUST be followed. *THEY* make the descisions... Silent Bob


(sarcasm mode on.) thanks for the keen insight. (sarcasm mode off.)

i have just as much right to be sarcastic as mtn-man has the right to interject his editorial opinion in an e-mail to me. what i haven't noted before is that i was simply asking his questions about what does and doesn't qualify, etc., via e-mail when he deemed it appropriate to editorialize in an e-mail about the discussion going on here. does that require the use of sarcasm in my following responses? no. but i'm glad you, too, silent bob, are concerned about poor mtn-man, who in an e-mail to me claimed to have a thick skin.

(sarcasm mode on.) i'm glad to know that the tone of my e-mails to mtn-man is of such great concern to so many. (sarcasm mode off.) i am truly loved!
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hardware
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this really doesn't have to do with the topic of the thread, but come somebody tell me when sarcasm became a felony? i had no idea it has been outlawed.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardware wrote:
[but i'm glad you, too, silent bob, are concerned about poor mtn-man, who in an e-mail to me claimed to have a thick skin.

(sarcasm mode on.) i'm glad to know that the tone of my e-mails to mtn-man is of such great concern to so many. (sarcasm mode off.) i am truly
loved!


I am uninterested in your discussions with mtn-man and listening to you endlessly complain about the issues at GC.com. If you don't like their policies, move along...

As far as me being concerned for your tone with mtn-man, that's obviously ridiculous. He's just doing his job and you feel the need to give him crap. I suggest that you work in customer service (either via phone or email) for at least 6 months and then you will learn to appreciate what the people on the other end take daily.

Just my worthless .02
Silent Bob
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hardware
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you're not interested, why are you reading this thread? do you actively participate in hobbies you have no interest in? do you go to a church whose interest you have no interest in? do you read books on subjects that don't appeal to you?

thanks for giving me a good laugh today. it is appreciated.

and thanks for telling me how i feel. i've been a bit confused about that lately. it's good to know i feel the need to give mtn-man crap. that clears everything up.

thanks again.
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tomslusher
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Jan 2003

Posts: 182

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I will rest my case. Hardware has done all the arguing I need to win it.

Quote:
i have just as much right to be sarcastic as mtn-man has the right to interject his editorial opinion in an e-mail to me.


Sure you do. But then don't be suprised when you don't get your way. There is a place for sarcasm, but not when you want to get your way. Why would anyone listen to your opinion when you are snotty and pissy about it?

Maybe this is a lesson in life rather than how to get a virtual cache approved. Or both.

Can't wait to see what you have to say next.

tomslusher
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardware wrote:
if you're not interested, why are you reading this thread?


You are obviously trolling and missing the point.

Quote:
it's good to know i feel the need to give mtn-man crap. that clears everything up.


You did, so you obviously felt the need to do so. He's there to approve caches, not to put up with people who don't like the policy.

Silent Bob
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mtn-man
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Aug 2003

Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardware wrote:
i make no apologies for any sarcastic comments about the "gods of geocaching." any leadership of an organization is going to be subject to criticism. if there's been a call from the geocaching community to reduce virtual caches, then it hasn't been brought to my attention. instead it seems that the few white males who make the decisions have determined it's not in our best interest to have a greater variety of virtual caches of all difficulties and interest. that's unfortunate.

WOW! We're bringing race into it? Amazing! I guess Hydee will be wondering about this. Uh, hydee answers all the emails that come into the contact address as well as moderates the forums. She and Jeremy do most of the moderating at this time. She also handles the admins. There are several female admins as well. I honestly can't say if any of them are anything other than white. It never mattered to me since I just see them as Geocachers and not by any racial or gender makeup.

As far as the micro I posted being "a *really* fun Micro", I guess that cachers out west look for more challenging finds for caches. I know of one cacher that drilled out a bolt and has it placed in a guardrail in an empty hole. I have found electrical boxes in parking garages. I have found a downed limb or two that were cut in half and drilled out and film canister was put in complete with dowels drilled in to hold it together. I won't tell you where they are or what cache because you never know if you might run into one when traveling.

I will show you this one, which was voted the outstanding multi-cache by the GGA in 2003.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=33897

<sarcasm> Oh man, and then there is that band shell you can see from a quarter of a mile away... wow! </sarcasm>

I will say that no, I was not abuse or assaulted. The fact is that 99.9 percent of cachers are civil in their emails. It is a discussion to gain a resolution so both parties can move on. I don't like sarcasm because I don't have time for it. Hardware seems to not be able to write in any other method so I have responded in kind. The first cache I had a problem with was dealt with much quicker (no logbook), but it appears he has not read the guidelines still since there are so many issues. That is a shame. I just think the sarcasm in the emails is unnecessary and it would be nice to just have a discussion and get this cache done. This cache was originally submitted on September 2! How long does it take to hide a micro-cache? FYI... the latest attempt was rejected again because the final is 423 feet from his newest micro-cache. It seems there are other problems with reading the guidelines since he created a one-finder temporary cache in July while traveling in Michigan. Of course, vacation caches and one-time finder caches are against the guidelines.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=80281

FYI... Jeremy has been very clear about virtual caches in the Groundspeak Forums:
http://ubbx.groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=30460177&r=72460177#72460177
"Re: Virtual Caches

"If you really want to enter the murky realm of virtual caches, ask first and post second. Consider that your virtual cache will most likely not get listed. That way you are prepared for disappointment."


As far as expressing appreciation? From hardware's next to last email:
"i had not asked for your editorial opinion on the interest, or lack thereof, in a virtual cache discussion in the mngca forum. but i got it anyway. i have no idea why that was important to convey in your response to my questions about this cache. you don't like sarcasm in messages, i don't appreciate unsolicited judgment on whether or not there's interest in a topic of public discussion. oh well."

"in case you've forgotten, i've expressed appreciation for your help in answering questions. i disagree with your judgment of whether or not this is worthy of a virtual cache, but it's not that important to me, obviously. i will be finishing the cache page shortly."


Looks like it is pretty important based on this topic. I replied:
"In your first cache where you questioned logbooks (back when I asked you to read the guidelines the first time) you were not nearly as bad as you have been this time. If I am to understand that you have "expressed appreciation", then I have to tell you have not done a very good job."

Last time I looked this was America, home of the free.

This is a public forum so I feel I have the right to post here. If the administrators of this forum feel I have stepped over the line at any time they can remove me. I post frequently in the Groundspeak Forums and moderate certain forums there and I help run our local forums doing all the main admin work. The main reason I finally registered here after looking at these forums as a guest for so long is so I could post a funny sig line as a joke back at King Boreas (your a funny man KB). I originally looked in here to see if anyone complained about his number of cache hides. He seems to have great respect so I have left him alone about his cache density recently. He seems to maintain them quickly.

Understand this. If the cache can finally conform to the guidelines then I will be more than happy to approve it. Even though it is more of a political statement than just a friendly cache hunt I will only look at it as it relates to the guidelines. Once approved, if he modifies the cache one bit so it does not conform then I will archive it immediately. I don't interject my personal feelings in approvals. If I did then I would be removed as an admin. If I approve caches that don't conform then I will be removed as well. It has happened. Some admins quit because of cachers like hardware. It is no big deal and he is not the worst I have seen. He has not used a four-letter word yet so he has one thing going for him.

Yeah Silent Bob, he is trolling. Hardware, if you don't know what that means either then do a search on "internet troll".
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hardware
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Posts: 157

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

again, thanks for telling me what i felt the need to do. i had no idea. your judgment is the utmost of importance regarding my actions. if you explain why i'm doing something, i will take it as gospel, bob.

by the way, this thread was all a ruse. i started a thread to ask about opinions on virtual caching. it's clear now to everyone that my intentions were to abuse and assualt mtn-man, disregard all geocaching.com guidelines, bully mtn-man into approving a virtual cache and disrespect freedom of speech in america. (the same freedom that protects, sarcasm, no?)

my intentions in making an intersting virtual cache into a multi-micro were purely evil. if you take a look back, you can see very early on that my i was merely baiting mtn-man into posting here, so i could abuse and assault him.

the fact that i've taken time over a period of several days to try to set this up a micro cache shows that my intentions were not pure. (anybody whose actions were pure would have spent every waking moment finishing the task.) the fact that i trusted my GPSr to tell me the new end location was far enough from an existing cache, when it isn't, is further proof.

the fact that i made a temporary bug drop in michigan in july in desperation to leave bugs closer to their goal (because the 1 cache i tried to hit had been plundered) is further evidence that i have no idea and no concern for what the cache guidelines are. (next time i'll be much smarter about making a temporary bug drop, since breakin' the law is my prime objective.)

congratulations, whatever your opinion is on the matter, it is right. this has been one great farce.
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hardware
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Posts: 157

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomslusher wrote:
I think I will rest my case. Hardware has done all the arguing I need to win it.

Quote:
i have just as much right to be sarcastic as mtn-man has the right to interject his editorial opinion in an e-mail to me.


Sure you do. But then don't be suprised when you don't get your way. There is a place for sarcasm, but not when you want to get your way. Why would anyone listen to your opinion when you are snotty and pissy about it?

Maybe this is a lesson in life rather than how to get a virtual cache approved. Or both.

Can't wait to see what you have to say next.

tomslusher


i know you're waiting, slush.

IF IT IS NOT CLEAR, THEN FOR THE LAST TIME, LET ME MAKE IT SO: mtn-man suggested this should be some sort of multi-cache, since it doesn't fit the guilelines of a virtual cache, as they now stand. (in his opinon.) very early in this thread i made it clear that despite my disagreement, i was in the process of adding a micro to this cache. silly me, i was thinking that it would serve as both a virtual and a multi-micro, all rolled into one.

I HAVE NOT been trying to get my way.

you stand corrected, slusher. thanks for taking the time to have a clear understanding of this.
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towlebooth
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 26 Nov 2002

Posts: 1270

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<moderator hat off>
Idea
Raise your hand if you think that we've all gotten enough of this thread. Hardware, is there any way that you can just agree to disagree with the rest of the MN geocaching community and leave it all at that? Wink

For my part I too have been aggravated in the past by having virtuals denied. But honestly, I went back and placed a micro there and people do seem to like it. I learnd a good lesson on that one. On the other hand I have enjoyed finding my share of virtuals, but usually they are near another bunch of cache and I've gotten them along with a slew of traditionals or multis.

My point here is that I think that this thread has played itself out. If folks still have a beef after 4 pages of posts then I think that they might take it to the groundspeak forums and save the rest of us the pain of reading through all this. I learned a few things in the first couple of pages but the signal to noise ratio is starting to get a bit thin.
<flame suit on>
<moderator hat back on>
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mtn-man
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Aug 2003

Posts: 70

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No flame suit needed.

I agree. I've said all I need to say.
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King Boreas
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 2441

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flame Suit?
_________________
Joined: 16 Dec 2002

arrive...raise heck...leave (SCSA)
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rickrich
Geocacher


Joined: 06 Jul 2003

Posts: 673

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flame suit
Flame suit
Flame suit
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rickrich wrote:
Flame suit


This poor kid is going to get flamed by his peers for wearing that Wink

Quote:
Flame suit


This is definitly smokin' Smile

Silent Bob
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hardware
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Posts: 157

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

let me again reiterate the point of this thread, when it started last week:

"what i am curious about is the experiences of others who have created virtual caches and/or had them rejected, as well as the knowledge of those who read the geocaching.com forums."

as i have done before, i would like to thank those who have offered opinions, pro and con, about virtual caching. i have a better understanding of why some people like them while others don't, why they're of value to some, and of no interest whatsoever to others.

and although it was pointed out, needlessly, it is also clear that whether any of us like them or not, we're bound by the changing rules pertaining to virtual caches, and geocaching as a whole. understanding them better is helpful, at least to me. some have used their time to help me achieve that. so thanks!

this thread was not started for others to air their personal grievances publicly, or for others to grind their personal axes. for those that deemed this thread the place to achieve those agendas, god bless ya.

i'm not sure who i'm supposed to disagree with, towlebooth, but i think you need to ask participants to stop assigning feelings to others and arguing about topics that are irrelevent to this thread.

then again, this thread was clearly started as a ruse, as i've admitted, so i'm sure i'm to blame for everything. i wouldn't want anyone to take responsibility for their posts.
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