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virtual caches
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we all know virtual caches are easy ways to add to the cache total. if given a choice between visiting 2 virtual sites that are otherwise equal, which would you prefer?
one that takes 10 seconds to complete
16%
 16%  [ 2 ]
one that asks me to explore the site for 5 minutes in order to complete it
83%
 83%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 12

Author Message
Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rickrich wrote:
As long as we allow Jeremy to hold a monopoly on this sport, this will never be implemented. He's spent the entire summer doing absolutely nothing to add features to gc.com. Even simple things that take 5 minutes (like fixing the topo map links for WGS84 coords) aren't getting done.


He doesn't hold a monopoly we just favor his site.

I understand his lack of a desire to update things though. Who wants to spend a beautiful summer, indoors, writing code on their webpage so that other people can enjoy the outdoors more?

I think it was a bit selfish to imply that he should code so you can geocache Smile

Have a good one,
Silent Bob
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Centris
Past MnGCA Chair


Joined: 27 Nov 2002

Posts: 620

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marsha&Bob wrote:
I understand his lack of a desire to update things though. Who wants to spend a beautiful summer, indoors, writing code on their webpage so that other people can enjoy the outdoors more?

I think it was a bit selfish to imply that he should code so you can geocache Smile


Geocaching.com is his JOB and his company, not just his webpage and hobby.
There are many folks who would rather be out in the beautiful summer geocaching, but they can't because they have to go to work doing something that might be boring and/or time consuming. Crying or Very sad

It is not selfish for the consumers to want value and quality for something most of us pay for by our membership in the site and by buying his licensed geo merchandise.

The problem is that gc.com generates income no matter how badly coded the webpage has become and Jeremy has no incentive to change that.
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rickrich
Geocacher


Joined: 06 Jul 2003

Posts: 673

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact is that there are dozens of programmers willing to freely contribute to make gc.com better or to create a whole new website. Jeremy refuses any help, and on top of that imposes llicense terms to prevent people from sharing the cache locations and descriptions to create alternatives.

Current copyright law does allow the facts of the cache locations to be copied, but his license terms do not. I claim that this is monopolistic behavior and not in the spirit of geocaching at all.

-Rick
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hardware
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Posts: 157

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jillibean wrote:
Hardware,

I was wondering, when you created the cache page on Geocaching.com, if you included any reason why the cache should be virtual rather than physical?


it didn't say in my cache description that it is in a public park that at times has high traffic and few good places to hide a micro cache, but i thought it was obvious enough that the band shell is in a public parkway, based upon what i did write in the description.

it seems that this cache isn't a matter of if a micro cache can be placed nearby, it's that this site isn't interesting enough (which is wrong), it can be found without a GPS (which is true) and a multi-cache can be made using this site, so therefore i HAVE to.

it's a shame that many of us have a respect or appreciation for virtual caches, yet geocaching.com doesn't have respect for us.

having gone back and read the navicache vs. geocaching thread carefully, it seems that navicache is much more friendly to the caching community. at some point this fall i'm going to sit down and duplicate the handful of caches i have placed at navicache, as i know at least rickrich has done.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rickrich wrote:
Current copyright law does allow the facts of the cache locations to be copied, but his license terms do not. I claim that this is monopolistic behavior and not in the spirit of geocaching at all.


Can't individuals who want to plant a cache have the option of also crossposting it on navicache? The fact that navicache is not as popular is not relevant.

Can't you make it more popular that way?

Silent Bob.
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Kitch
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 18 May 2003

Posts: 1286

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the main reasons I love VC is because I can take a 7 month old with me with no fear of really going into the deep woods...I know I normally don't have to worry about caring her outside of a stoller and poking her eye or something with a branch. I love the fact that this is a family event and I honestly believe that more VC are needed.

Are they honestly worried about somebody getting a large number of stats that are not really logged.....come-on....I could starting logging finds on all kinds of caches and nobody could really keep up with me and deleting them as fast as I could log them if I wanted to CHEAT MYSELF and my own honesty.

As far as me and my family I'd love to see more VC's ....it can make for a better day of planning when with the entire family on a trip out of town...I can kinda plan how long I would be at the cache that I'd be going out of my way for vs. looking for 20mins. upsetting my wife and my 3yr. old daughter after a can't find.

Just my view!!!
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Moe the Sleaze
Geocacher


Joined: 10 Jan 2003

Posts: 1145

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't argue with all of the reasons many people like virts (family friendliness, etc), but for me it comes down to one thing, they aren't really caches. The name of the game is geocaching. There are other websites whose purpose is to list waypoints of interest.
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"Hi, I'm Moe, or as the women know me - Hey! You in the bushes."
-Moe, The Simpsons
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hardware
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Posts: 157

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rickrich and kitch make good points that i agree with, and illustrate that there's clearly a value and need for virtual caches. i have no problem with tighter standards for virtual caches. to me, a cache that would ask me to do more than report the year a monument was dedicated would have a lot of appeal, even if it's not at the most unique geographical point on the planet.

as far as padding the precious "find" total, virtual caches often have a higher burden of proof than a traditional cache. if somebody says they found my cache, but didn't sign the book, i may never know that, because i don't audit the log books of my caches. (could you imagine the king trying to verify every find of his caches?) many times virtuals require visiting the site and reporting to the creator at least some sort of trivial information that can't easily be obtained any other way.

i do agree with moe, virtuals aren't the same thing as finding a cache, and deserve some sort of differentiation. i, too, was thinking that perhaps it's time for a site dedicated to virtual caching. either a spin of from geocaching, such as virtualcaching.com, or a new organization that is willing to accept them for what they are. from what i've read, it sounds like navicache is interested in filling that niche.

although it would be a shame to have to rely on several sites in attempt to do the same basic thing. wouldn't it be ironic in a world of consolidations to see geocaching splinter into several specializations?
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LanceVE
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 132

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

There are other websites whose purpose is to list waypoints of interest.


such as www.waypoint.org... The worlds largest collection of 'virtual caches'
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hardware
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Jan 2003

Posts: 157

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

while it has the right idea, waypoint.org suffers from the lack of organization that geocaching.com has, but thanks for sharing the site.

i look forward to exploring/utilizing navicache this fall.
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rickrich
Geocacher


Joined: 06 Jul 2003

Posts: 673

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moe the Sleaze wrote:
for me it comes down to one thing, they aren't really caches. The name of the game is geocaching.


A cache is a store of goods or valuables. In the case of (good) virtual caches, the valuables are intangible supplies for the mind.

-Rick
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rickrich wrote:

A cache is a store of goods or valuables. In the case of (good) virtual caches, the valuables are intangible supplies for the mind.


Exactly. For a History buff (and one of those people that is going to be dragging his kids to ever roadside historical marker) looking at virtual caches is interesting to say the least (the good ones I guess).

From Geocaching I have a better understanding of Minneapolis than most people I know that have lived here their entire lives...

Just my worthless .02
Silent Bob
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MNSledHead
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:04 pm    Post subject: Excelsior Bandshell Reply with quote

Mike,

I too had a virtual cache rejected for the bandshell in Excelsior. I intentionally left the description sort of vague so the location wasn't immediately identifyable, and I think that may be why the cache was rejected. It was at that time I decided not to bother creating any more virtuals. My whole point was that I enjoy geocaching but sometimes in the heat of the summer, or when the bugs are really really bad, I just don't care to be stomping around in the woods. Virtual caches can be a way to continue to cache with not so much effort (sounds a little lazy I know, but I just don't like the heat!)

Anyway, the two virtual caches that I did get approved are very very easy and not super entertaining. I stated that pretty clearly right in the description so no one got their hopes up. I think the bandshell is much more interesting than the bell that sits outside the library in Excelsior. (One of my easy virtuals so I'm only taking a shot at myself!)

-MNSledHead
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mtn-man
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Aug 2003

Posts: 70

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardware wrote:
the cache in question:

the band shell at the commons of excelsior.

while i'm told that the cache is rejected in part because band shells aren't that interesting, i've made it clear that this one is about 1,000 time more interesting than any other community bandshell.

Of course, I am the one who dealt with hardware on this cache. I never said that band shells are not interesting. I said they are extremely common. You find them in almost every major city. Virtual caches focus on the unique. I even used the example of Red Rocks in Denver as one that is sort of unique.



How about Sydney's Opera House?




To me Red Rocks is unique, but neither of my examples are a cache. Red rocks borders on it, but it is also a commercial area. If you have ever been there you will never forget it. Still, it is not a cache.

It is a bummer I guess that Jeremy has not moved as fast as he would like with site upgrades. Coding has taken longer than he expected obviously. I will say that just as locationless caches will have their own area, it appears that virtual caches are possibly going down the same road. (By the way, navicache does not allow locationless caches of any type period.) Geocaching.com does not dislike virtual caches but it has raised the bar on the submissions. If they are split out from regular caches I would imagine that the guidelines will be relaxed. Jeremy has said in the forums that he is thinking of ways to mark points of interest through the site. I would imagine that the interest would go down if you can't get a smiley though.

Geocaching started out as going to find a hidden stash. Some variables were encouraged but not all have worked out. Moving caches get into banned areas so they are no longer allowed. It started to seem that virtual caches were being submitted for every brass plaque riveted to a piece of concrete and for every inanimate figurine or sculpture on the planet. Most of these you can see from 50 to 300 feet away. Geocaching is supposed to be a challenge. I don't see much challenge in finding a band shell. If you are that interested in band shells you can look them up in the phone book. I don't know if I would make a detour during my vacation to see the virtually worthless bandshell in MN, but I most certainly did make a detour to see Red Rocks before we left Denver the last time we were there.

http://www.mtn-man.org/co2003views.html

Sorry that a few of you are so upset about virtual caches. Navicache will take just about anything at this point it looks like. They also don't check on banned areas, so hopefully they will not cause problems for you with your Parks. We try to do the best job we can of serving the people of MN by watching what is posted and where. We make mistakes but try to correct them when pointed out. My thanks to several cachers that have helped me with questions about some locations.
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mtn-man... (formerly) Keeping an eye on the King!
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Kitch
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 18 May 2003

Posts: 1286

PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=56814

This might end this string of this topic....if you ever been to this VC you will understand as to why they are important......
Today of all days you should be going to this cache.

I don't want to go into details but you would understand as to why they are very important ....how in the world would I have ever found this spot on my own even if I knew about it ....and how in the world could you even put a cache near the spot to bring it 2 your attention.

Sometimes they are just needed to be VC out of pure respect for many reasons!!!!!
RESPECT is the key word here!
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