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Another DNR Relations/Discussion Thread
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ice tres
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Aug 2005

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:09 am    Post subject: all the cards Reply with quote

Yes, the MNDNR does hold all the cards -- because MNGCA has chosen to fold. I'm sure some members, including myself, will try to have some input before the year trial period is up. Even writing a polite letter is important. It won't have MnGCA letterhead, but every letter pointing out the inadequacy of the virtual cache only policy is important to their review in fall 2006.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: all the cards Reply with quote

ice tres wrote:
Yes, the MNDNR does hold all the cards -- because MNGCA has chosen to fold.

Please don't put words into the mouth of the association. It's not nice to do especially when they are not correct.

Please do write your letters though. You are most certainly entitled to do so as a citizen, taxpayer, and geocacher. Good luck.
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eagleyes
Geocacher


Joined: 03 Jun 2003

Posts: 743

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look into the General category on this forum and see the new subject about the newe\ gudielines and moves as of yesterday- virtuals are now under waymarking- along with other categories formerly used for "finds" and now not countable for raising numbers. Basically as of today there are now not any "new" finds allowed in MN State Parks.
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eagleyes
Geocacher


Joined: 03 Jun 2003

Posts: 743

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops- I mean geocaching websites.
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ice tres
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Aug 2005

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not putting words in the Association's mouth, I was expressing my opinion regarding the Association's approach to MnDNR's caching policy. I don't happen to believe the MnDNR holds all the cards unless we let them. And I believe we as an Association are letting them do so. Please don't get all huffy about this. It's not meant as an attack. After all, folding is often a good strategy in poker and politics. Laughing

If you eventually do decide to do anything else about the State Park policy in 2006, please post in the forum.

Ice Tres
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't getting huffy just stating that your opinion was incorrect. I made it clear that all Park District relations were important to me and that includes the DNR. I also made it clear that I would do what I could to make sure the Board remained open and accountable to the Association and to meet that goal I would be very open about our dealings with the DNR when we get there.
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Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5709

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ice tres wrote:
I was not putting words in the Association's mouth, I was expressing my opinion regarding the Association's approach to MnDNR's caching policy. I don't happen to believe the MnDNR holds all the cards unless we let them. And I believe we as an Association are letting them do so. Please don't get all huffy about this. It's not meant as an attack. After all, folding is often a good strategy in poker and politics. Laughing

If you eventually do decide to do anything else about the State Park policy in 2006, please post in the forum.


The point I believe SB was trying to make is that we haven't folded. Because you don't know about what we are doing doesn't mean that we aren't doing something, it just means that, for whatever reason, you are not in the loop of what is going on at the moment. By saying that MnGCA has folded IS putting words into the mouth of the association.

With all due respect, we don't need people to theorize and generate rumors about what is being done and what isn't.
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rickrich
Geocacher


Joined: 06 Jul 2003

Posts: 673

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about DNR. But SB and Paklid (and others) are giving a speech to Three Rivers Parks, to make them like Duluth parks. Right now, 3 caches no matter how big the park.

I don't care one way or the other, since police action is required in either case. Maybe I'll care once I hit 100 caches. Or 3 Rivers runs all the parks. Big, and getting bigger.

Nah. KB finds places to put them; I should too.
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tomslusher
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Jan 2003

Posts: 182

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Because you don't know about what we are doing doesn't mean that we aren't doing something, it just means that, for whatever reason, you are not in the loop of what is going on at the moment. By saying that MnGCA has folded IS putting words into the mouth of the association.


As a current member (for the time being) of this organization, I would love to be, at least, infromed of what is going on in "the loop". I think as a member I have a right to know what my organization is doing behind my back. Please show me that the association has not folded.

I don't think that is at all too much to ask.

Here they come again,

tomslusher
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ice tres
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Aug 2005

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I'm not putting words in the Association's mouth. If I'd said THE MnGCA ANNOUNCED THAT IT'S FOLDING then I'd be putting words in the Assn.'s mouth. As it stands, I'm just stating my opinion.

I also would be very interested to know what my representatives are doing about this matter and I wonder about whether we members really want the MnGCA Board to proceed in secret. What sort of organization is that? The Board of any organization should be accountable to its members.

Remember anyone can get copies of any emails, documents or other correspondence between MnGCA and the DNR directly from the DNR just by filling out a simple one page form on their web site. When you're dealing with a state agency, there is no possibility of keeping it secret.

But why should the MnGCA's own members have to do that?
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Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5709

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will tell you that, at this point, the board has developed a plan of action regarding approaching the DNR. We know the route we want to take and are currently in the middle of implementing such plan. It's a very complex process involving a number of factors that I'm not going to get into here. This isn't a stall tactic - we are working on getting a line of communication open that will provide us with (hopefully) a relationship on good terms with folks at the DNR. Getting into more details than this is likely to draw this into a long debate that will possibly ruin our chances of establishing such relationship.

I am not going to get into the details of what our plans are at this point as it will end up causing what I believe to be "too many cooks in the kitchen". I will tell you that we are currently in the process of opening a line of communication with the DNR.

I hope that this explaination of the current situation is adequate for those wanting to know where we are in the process.

We have already had numerous discussions on the forums about what we want to see in a DNR policy. At least two of the board members have expressed that we are willing/wanting to address the DNR policy in our tenure on the board. It isn't a forgotten issue.

If you feel that we need to provide documentation to show our every step in the process then I'm sorry. The board needs the ability to operate at a level that allows us to get things done without having everyone asking why we did it this way or why we did it that way. You, the membership, nominated and elected the board to represent you. Please let us do that now.

We are working to get things done, but it's not an instantaneous process. It will take time.

If you, as a MnGCA member, want to become more involved in this process or future processes, I encourage you to

A. VOTE in the elections next fall. Voter turnout this year was very low, and many of the most outspoken people here failed to cast a ballot. I'm not interested in getting into a long discussion here about WHY you didn't cast your ballot. My point is that if you want to have a say in the organization, voting is the first step.

B. RUN for office next fall. This is the only way you will be able to sit on the board and work with the fine details. Again: You the membership nominated and elected the board.
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tomslusher
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Jan 2003

Posts: 182

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now this is getting a bit scary. Good thing this only concerns MnGCA. If my elected officials acted with this type of "sit down and shut up and we will tell you when you can speak" attitude, they would be fighting a recall election.

Quote:
It's a very complex process involving a number of factors that I'm not going to get into here


And where would be a good place or time to "get into this"?

Quote:
I am not going to get into the details of what our plans are at this point


Becoming rather suspicious!!


Quote:
I hope that this explaination of the current situation is adequate for those wanting to know where we are in the process.


no, it has raised many more questions that need to be answered.


Quote:
The board needs the ability to operate at a level that allows us to get things done without having everyone asking why we did it this way or why we did it that way. You, the membership, nominated and elected the board to represent you. Please let us do that now.


I don't know about others but having a board member asking me to trust them and not ever question thier motives or actions scares the heck out of me. Didn't Nixon say something to that effect. I also remember Clinton saying something like that. Hmmmm


Another thing, you say want to represent us on this issue. How do you even know how we feel. No one has ever asked me or anyone else for that matter, at least not publically, or put together a poll.. Actually, I was told to go lay by my dish (in effect) when I questioned the subject. Are you representing us or are you expecting us to represent you?


Quote:
If you, as a MnGCA member, want to become more involved in this process or future processes, I encourage you to


So you are saying we are powerless until next falls election and we should just sit back and let you and "the club" tell us what to do and think from the smoke filled back room? My frustration level is again being to boil. Tell me why I should trust this bunch? Why there cannot be accountability?

I am curious, do open meeting laws affect us or is that only governmental orgaizations?

AAARRRGGGGGG,

tomslusher
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Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5709

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomslusher wrote:
If my elected officials acted with this type of "sit down and shut up and we will tell you when you can speak" attitude,


If you interpret my attitude as such then I'm sorry. I'm very open to discussion on the topic. I'm simply not willing to get into the fine details of what I or the board is doing on it. I have given you general information. Again, I'm not going to get into the fine details as it's likely to muck up the works.

Quote:
Quote:
It's a very complex process involving a number of factors that I'm not going to get into here


And where would be a good place or time to "get into this"?


Maybe you missed the line where I said I'm not going to get into the fine details. No - wait - I guess you didn't miss it:

Quote:
Quote:
I am not going to get into the details of what our plans are at this point


Quote:
Quote:
The board needs the ability to operate at a level that allows us to get things done without having everyone asking why we did it this way or why we did it that way. You, the membership, nominated and elected the board to represent you. Please let us do that now.


I don't know about others but having a board member asking me to trust them and not ever question thier motives or actions scares the heck out of me.


I didn't say that you should "trust me" or "never question our motives or actions". What I did say is that I'm not willing to discuss the DETAILS of our actions. I personally am willing to be accountable to you, the membership, but for me to get my job done I can't have you nit picking the DETAILS of what I do. We're not off inventing some new thing that we can do to hose you over - we're working on something that was discussed here in the forums.

Quote:
Another thing, you say want to represent us on this issue. How do you even know how we feel. No one has ever asked me or anyone else for that matter, at least not publically, or put together a poll..


There have been more than one thread on the forums to discuss the DNR policy. I'm sorry that you've missed them. They haven't been hidden from anyone - member or nonmember.

Quote:
If you, as a MnGCA member, want to become more involved in this process or future processes, I encourage you to


So you are saying we are powerless until next falls election and we should just sit back and let you and "the club" tell us what to do and think from the smoke filled back room? [/quote]

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that is one way to get involved. Posting to the forums in a productive way is another way to get involved. I'm sure others can come up with more ideas.
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ice tres
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Aug 2005

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've said this before: I believe that pushing our luck with the DNR will end up hurting us more than it will help us. If we challenge the policy at this point then we're likely to loose the ground we've gained in a year when it's up for review. If we kindly go along with it, it's possible that we may gain ground in a year or two. If they see us as being a group of law-abiding citizens that cache responsibly then we may earn more from them in the future.


Given your attitude about the DNR and the correct approach to its caching policy, I don't understand what you'd say to them if you did establish a dialogue. Just tell them what a great job they're doing?

Are you instead planning to present the information to them about other state's geocaching policies and your Duluth policy? That would be a nice effort on your part. I would write the model policy otherwise, and have done so, but I would support your efforts to win them over. You don't have to keep it secret. We aren't your enemies.

Yes, democracy is messy and it often seems like there are too many cooks but what emerges is usually far superior to what you'll get otherwise.
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tomslusher
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Jan 2003

Posts: 182

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm simply not willing to get into the fine details of what I or the board is doing on it. I have given you general information. Again, I'm not going to get into the fine details as it's likely to muck up the works.


As a member of this organization I am demanding to know what MnGCA plans or hopes to accomplish in our talks with the DNR, how we are proposing to accomplish that plan and what we have done to date to reach those goals.

This is a simple request, either yes we get the information or no we do not. I don't need any spinning or reasons why or why not. There is no reason that members need to be kept "out of the loop" as you put it.

Either we run a free and open organization (along with the board) or we have a secret "he-man women's hater club". Please tell me why this needs to be kept confidential? I guess i don't care if you are sorry, as an elected board member you are accountable and you need to be open and honest. Anything else would be absolutely unaccectable.

tomslusher
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