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OT: DNR, Board, and random other discussions
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tomslusher
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Jan 2003

Posts: 182

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been sitting back rather quietly biting my tongue watch this unfold. What I see is ice tres offering up everything but his firstborn to help with this situation and he/she is running into brick walls bigger than the Great Wall of China. And not from whom you would suspect (the DNR) but from ourselves and our Board.

For God's sake, why do we need to wait another month and a half for anything to be done? Did we elect a board to only serve for 10 months? Why does everything have to come to a screeching halt 2 months before an election. Why can't we get a committee started on this? (in my opinion a committee is the best way at getting nothing done real slow, but that is only my opinion).

I hate to agree with a guy from the Sierra club, (that is a whole nother story) but this guy has the DNR pegged correctly. They are not doing this to help us. The DNR is the most beurocratic mess of a state agency that we have. They will throw a wrench in anything they can. I have dealt with them on snowmobile trails and access issues and they did this crap then too. And for both a snowmobile guy and a Sierra club guy to see that, then we got it pegged pretty good.

What is it gonna hurt to ask for people to form a committee and get started on this. For Christ Sake's, we got a committee on getting a coin made but not this? What is more important????

Standing back with my asbestos suit on,

tomslusher
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomslusher wrote:
For God's sake, why do we need to wait another month and a half for anything to be done? Did we elect a board to only serve for 10 months? Why does everything have to come to a screeching halt 2 months before an election. Why can't we get a committee started on this? (in my opinion a committee is the best way at getting nothing done real slow, but that is only my opinion).

I, as an individual, have been advocating a group approach to research and discussion of proposed DNR policies. I don't see why a "committee" needs to be formed for what I believe should be an open discussion with all members present.

What I do believe is that because this process will take more than two months we should wait to go to the DNR until *after* the 2006 Board takes office. That way, there is not a change of guard during the direct talks w/the DNR. Will the 2006 Board decide that the DNR should be faced with a membership committee instead of Board members? I don't know. That's why I believe it's best to wait until then.

Again, as I've stated numerous times in the past, put your energies into research and development of the new policy rather than how the DNR will be approached later. There is absolutely no reason that we need to get ahead of ourselves and rush into this.

I'm glad that we have people here that know the DNR on our side. Let's put that knowledge to good use and make sure we have some solid plans going into the meetings with them. Planning how and when we will meet before we have something to offer is pointless.
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tomslusher
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Jan 2003

Posts: 182

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
running into brick walls bigger than the Great Wall of China. And not from whom you would suspect (the DNR) but from ourselves and our Board.


I rest my case!!

thanks anyway,

tomslusher
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Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5693

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two comments here (both of which seem like they've already been stated):

I believe the current board wants to have some continuity in the dealings with the DNR. Thus they are waiting for the next board to come in.

We have nothing to propose to the DNR right now. What are we going to go to them with? We are having a discussion NOW about what we should present to the DNR. We're making a little headway on it. A couple of people have offered some opinions on my proposed policy, and KB has also offered some additional information from other states.

We're making progress, just doing a little prep work first.
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Wayfarin Stranger
Geocacher


Joined: 01 Apr 2003

Posts: 122

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have been sitting back rather quietly biting my tongue watch this unfold. What I see is ice tres offering up everything but his firstborn to help with this situation and he/she is running into brick walls bigger than the Great Wall of China. And not from whom you would suspect (the DNR) but from ourselves and our Board.


Tomslusher, I agree wholeheartedly, and you and I are not alone.[/quote]
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pto
Geocacher


Joined: 18 Mar 2004

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfarin Stranger wrote:
Quote:
I have been sitting back rather quietly biting my tongue watch this unfold. What I see is ice tres offering up everything but his firstborn to help with this situation and he/she is running into brick walls bigger than the Great Wall of China. And not from whom you would suspect (the DNR) but from ourselves and our Board.


Tomslusher, I agree wholeheartedly, and you and I are not alone.

^ What he Said, Ditto.

Quote:
. . .we got a committee on getting a coin made but not this?


Embarassed Embarassed
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sui generis
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 17 Apr 2004

Posts: 608

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all of this dissent, and what appears to be a small core of agreeing parties, I am surprised at the lack of the involvement on the part of the dissenters in attempting to get a member on the board so that they can help shape policy and priorities as they believe they should be shaped. If you don't like what you are seeing, then get involved. It is time for you to either put up or shut up. If you nominate yourselves in an effort to work as opposed to just gripe, I will certainly second your nomination. You now have no good argument for not attempting to do what you can to make the organization and its priorities into what you believe it should be.
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miles58
Geocacher


Joined: 07 Mar 2005

Posts: 196

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sui generis wrote:
With all of this dissent, and what appears to be a small core of agreeing parties, I am surprised at the lack of the involvement on the part of the dissenters in attempting to get a member on the board so that they can help shape policy and priorities as they believe they should be shaped. If you don't like what you are seeing, then get involved. It is time for you to either put up or shut up. If you nominate yourselves in an effort to work as opposed to just gripe, I will certainly second your nomination. You now have no good argument for not attempting to do what you can to make the organization and its priorities into what you believe it should be.


How dare you suggest that the dissenters to a choice of path are just bitching! I made a good faith effort to uncover the information that came to light that prompted the others here you accuse and was not only shut down, I was threatened with blockage from the forum. If that is you attitude and it is shared by the "small core of agreeing parties" then perhaps your mutual admiration society is about to get what is so richly deserves!
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towlebooth
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 26 Nov 2002

Posts: 1270

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an important issue for all of us. Even so, please try and keep this as friendly and civil as possible.
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ice tres
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Aug 2005

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sui generis wrote:
With all of this dissent, and what appears to be a small core of agreeing parties, I am surprised at the lack of the involvement on the part of the dissenters in attempting to get a member on the board so that they can help shape policy and priorities as they believe they should be shaped.


I for one am not allowed to even vote let alone be on the Board as I just joined a few weeks ago and I think the Board closed voting to members who joined in June or some such time.

But I must say, I looked around on the MnGCA web site and it's not an easy find (difficulty *****) as to who is on the Board, who is running for the new Board, and what the positions of current and/or incoming Board members are. Maybe this will become clear as the process continues or maybe I just missed that www page. (Hey, this is volunteer work, and I do understand that a few people have worked very hard on the www site and it is generally very very impressive.)

Bottom line: we don't need a finalized policy to start talking to the MnDNR. This has to be a fairly extended process as it will likely be very hard to get them to agree to any policy that includes traditional caches. Start with the Duluth Policy (as Pear Head tweaks it), let's get some Board authorization to call them up, and let's get a sense of what they want. There's probably no need for a formal meeting right now. If they're totally resistant to our "dream policy", we'll know in time to mobilize and reasonably compromise to the best of our ability. Just tell the MnDNR contacts that MnGCA is formuating a policy for traditional caches and would like an ongoing dialogue.

Again--I'd happily accept the Duluth Policy if the MnDNR would agree. We just have to know for sure if that Policy is at all viable for them (which, again, I very very seriously doubt but hope I'm wrong). So long as y'all think the Duluth Policy is a viable possibility as a DNR reg, I don't see how you'll come to accept cache placement limitations and reporting requirements that are not in that Policy. We simply have to send the Duluth Policy up as a trial balloon before the MnGCA will, as a group, get serious about hammering out a compromise. One of the first rules of negotiation is to not negotiate with yourself.

We shouldn't get polarized as a group when it would be so simple to test whether the Duluth Policy or some similar plan will be acceptable even as a point of departure for MnDNR. Again, I'm certainly prepared and eager to be happily surprised.

Personally, I believe that a policy that attempts to address MnDNR's perceived concerns would be optimal, but I can see that at least some on the MnGCA Board do not want to do this--and indeed do not accept my contention that the virtual caching policy quite clearly affects traditional caches--and instead want to present our "best case" regulation. That's fine, AS LONG AS YOU DO IT ASAP so we can get on with a more realistic policy, figure out how best to lobby, etc if the Duluth Policy doesn't fly. It makes no sense to first formulate a policy, then figure out how to "sell" it to MnDNR as these two tasks must be done in tandem based on MnDNR feedback.

Better to hear from them now than this time next year.
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pto
Geocacher


Joined: 18 Mar 2004

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all of this dissent, and what appears to be a small core of agreeing parties, I am surprised at the lack of the involvement on the part of the dissenters in attempting to get a member on the board so that they can help shape policy and priorities as they believe they should be shaped.

The small core of agreeing parites is what keeps me away from this organization. Its a fan club - always has been, probably always will be.
Its been made clear they are going to run this thing as They see fit, period. Small agreeing parties dont often make good decisions for large groups of people - dissenters or not. Minnesota Geocachers are affected, not just mngca members - Big Difference. But the small core of agreeing parties seems to have agreed to wait, while the majority of affected cachers would probably prefer some action be taken sooner than later.

A member on this board will do No Good. The Whole Board needs to be on the same page, and work together. One guy will Not be able to shape change. Until the entire board consists of people who are involved for the right reasons, Nothing will ever change. History has proven it. Read rr's link above. See the problem?

If you don't like what you are seeing, then get involved. It is time for you to either put up or shut up. If you nominate yourselves in an effort to work as opposed to just gripe, I will certainly second your nomination. You now have no good argument for not attempting to do what you can to make the organization and its priorities into what you believe it should be.

I was asked 2 times to run for the board this time around. I Cant, because I didnt fully register in time. Bylaws prohibit it. Darn the luck. All that kept me from fully registering was a few lines of private info - info that would then be held by the small core of agreeing parties. Nope, I dont need to be affiliated with this group to cache in MN, or help promote a better policy with the DNR. I am a Minnesota Cacher - thats enough to get me in line.
No affiliation here will eventually be a good thing.



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miles58
Geocacher


Joined: 07 Mar 2005

Posts: 196

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

towlebooth wrote:
This is an important issue for all of us. Even so, please try and keep this as friendly and civil as possible.


Where were you when the first discussion was shut down?????

Arbitrary shutdown of a discussion that quite obviously was necessary to continue that we may have the information ultimately dislclosed here is hardly what anyone would consider as anything but rude and inconsiderate.
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sui generis
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 17 Apr 2004

Posts: 608

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL Laughing Laughing I guess I hit a nerve with somebody! I having nothing against taking a position against a certain course of action. As prior posts would indicate, I am personally not for a cooperating with the DNR given the policy that they came out with. As such, I remained out of the discussion on how to approach the DNR other than to indicate that the only thing that needs to be done to exempt caches from the abandoned property rule is to pass a regulation permitting them. What dismays me is a paltry turnout with regard to persons running for office when there seems to be so much unhappiness concerning the direction of the organization. There are a small number of members who do nothing but bitch about the current administration. That is fine. However, Now that the time has come to effect change, the parties that care enough to even be members in the first place have done nothing to either step up and run for a position, or nominate like minded individuals to run. If you want to complain, you have a responsibility to act when the opportunity arises, otherwise, you are doing nothing other than "bitching" as you so eloquently put it.
How dare I point this out? How dare YOU advocate armchair quarterbacking when the opportunity to actually hit the field and play arises.
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sui generis
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 17 Apr 2004

Posts: 608

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I for one am not allowed to even vote let alone be on the Board as I just joined a few weeks ago and I think the Board closed voting to members who joined in June or some such time


But you are doing what you can for now, and if your enthusiasm does not wane, you would make a great candidate for future boards.
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I am amazed by how many people harp on the need to speak and write English in this country while exhibiting a fundamental lack of skills in the areas of spelling and sentence composition. Would this be irony, hypocrisy, or both?
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ice tres wrote:
But I must say, I looked around on the MnGCA web site and it's not an easy find (difficulty *****) as to who is on the Board, who is running for the new Board, and what the positions of current and/or incoming Board members are.

To find out the current Board members please click here: http://www.mngca.org/contacts.php -- it's linked right on the main page in case you need to find it again.

The "new Board" will hold the same positions.
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