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QR Barcoded Geocaches are NOT Elitist
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tonkaMN
MnGCA Board


Joined: 10 Jun 2009

Posts: 892

PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rustynails wrote:
Looks like I'm being attacked by many people sensitive about their wealth.


Nobody is attacking you, Rusty. We're all just trying to make our own points. You have your opinion and others have theirs. Just because they aren't the same doesn't mean that somebody is attacking someone else to make their point.

I feel bad that you lost your job. It has never happened to me, but I can imagine that it must be hard to deal with. You'll get through this difficult time in your life. Just keep looking and you will find a job. We all have our struggles. Mine hasn't been money, but I've had some difficult things that I've had to deal with, too. Hang in there. You'll be fine. We're all friends here, so don't take it personally when someone disagrees with you.

And no, I am not sensitive about my wealth. God has blessed me and it isn't anything to be ashamed of.
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BobboTeam
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Jun 2006

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bflentje wrote:
BobboTeam wrote:
A more serious reply: As long as I know the deal before I start looking for it, it's a fair play. I would be frustrated to make a long hike, and a grueling search, only to learn when I open the container that there is a QR code as part of the experience. If the cache page cautions that a smartphone or digital camera is an essential TOTT in the field, then it's just plain fun.


But wait, you would consider Not Knowing as unfair play?


Sorry it has been so long since you asked the question. I just noticed it today somehow.

I wouldn't call it unfair play. But yes, I would be very annoyed if I got a mile into a park, spent 10 minutes looking for it, opened it up and I was unable to resolve the cache experience without the ability to interpret a QR code.

There is a reason we distinguish between a multi and traditional. If any cache needs a QR code as part of the experience, then I argue at the very least it should be entered as a Mystery Cache. Just as we still create challenge caches and list them as Mystery.

What you seem to be proposing (and apparently have in the field) is really sort of like a Wherigo cache, without the Wherigo app. I think it sounds fair, and fun. But if you have it listed as a "traditional" cache, then I would suggest that's not fair play.
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Copaman
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Joined: 25 May 2011

Posts: 273

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobboTeam wrote:

What you seem to be proposing (and apparently have in the field) is really sort of like a Wherigo cache, without the Wherigo app. I think it sounds fair, and fun. But if you have it listed as a "traditional" cache, then I would suggest that's not fair play.


Challenge listed as Traditional - http://coord.info/GC453C2

Field Puzzle listed as Traditional - http://coord.info/GC3P7RX

It happens.
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BobboTeam
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Jun 2006

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copaman wrote:
BobboTeam wrote:

What you seem to be proposing (and apparently have in the field) is really sort of like a Wherigo cache, without the Wherigo app. I think it sounds fair, and fun. But if you have it listed as a "traditional" cache, then I would suggest that's not fair play.


Challenge listed as Traditional - http://coord.info/GC453C2

Field Puzzle listed as Traditional - http://coord.info/GC3P7RX

It happens.


Yes, of course. All kinds of crazy things happen. There are the official rules, and there are things that make the game more or less fun and maximize or minimize frustrating experiences for the cache hunter. Not finding a difficult cache is frustrating, but that's not what I mean. I'm talking about the frustration where you feel like the rules were circumvented, or a loophole found—there is a sense of indignation that can arise. I hope we all agree that as players of the game, we should try to eliminate or minimize that latter form of frustration whenever we can.

The question at hand here, I thought, was whether a particular hide might be accepted as legal, but called poor sportsmanship or elitist. For the record, it is my opinion that the cache bflenje initially asked about is legal, sportsmanlike, and is not elitist, but I would suggest it should be listed as a puzzle cache with wording on the cache page to prepare cache hunters somehow that their TOTT bags need to include some form of digital technology. Of course I'm not saying my suggestion is definitive by any means. Implementing it would, however, protect him from some potential complaints about the nature of his cache. After all, it was probably those complaint messages that drove him to open this thread, right?

This summer I found a cache that was just a white plastic bag tied 10 feet up in a sparse cedar tree with a full-size spiral notebook in it. It was unsightly, and not at all much of a challenge, it looked like trash caught in a tree and could be seen from many tens of yards away. It probably would not have passed review if the reviewer fully understood what it was in practice (and it almost certainly didn't start out in the form I found it). Having said that, I can't really point to an objective rule that was broken by this cache. I do think it is a very poor example of a geocache—both for players of the game, and in this case to the general public. But, as Copaman said: It happens. (I'm talking about climb the tree - http://coord.info/GC2T3K4 - in South Minneapolis)

This conversation is more about fairness and elitism as separate from legal and actual. I suggest that the Copaman examples above might not exactly be the best examples of fair play (but then again I can't tell because the true nature of the challenge or puzzle isn't known to me). They certainly don't appear to have broken any official rules. I suspect I might find either one of them fun and interesting, but I would perhaps prefer they had been listed as Mystery caches.

The other day I came upon a sort of "field puzzle" that is listed as a traditional cache. It required me to look at the physical object in front of me, and puzzle out how to get into it. If it had been my cache, I would probably have listed it as a traditional, but with a higher difficulty (as this one did) and would include some text on the cache page to the order of "be sure and bring your thinking cap in your TOTT bag" or the like (as this one did). This was one of the most fun caches I have ever come across, and it not only fair play, I thought it was superb play. (I'm talking about Wicked - http://coord.info/GC4J30T - in Rosemount, Minn.) I can't point to the specific line that wasn't crossed here, but might have been crossed elsewhere. But again, this is about the subjective perception of the game.
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BigChiefS4
MnGCA Board


Joined: 22 Jun 2011

Posts: 243

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BobboTeam wrote:
Copaman wrote:
BobboTeam wrote:

What you seem to be proposing (and apparently have in the field) is really sort of like a Wherigo cache, without the Wherigo app. I think it sounds fair, and fun. But if you have it listed as a "traditional" cache, then I would suggest that's not fair play.


Challenge listed as Traditional - http://coord.info/GC453C2

Field Puzzle listed as Traditional - http://coord.info/GC3P7RX

It happens.


Yes, of course. All kinds of crazy things happen. There are the official rules, and there are things that make the game more or less fun and maximize or minimize frustrating experiences for the cache hunter. Not finding a difficult cache is frustrating, but that's not what I mean. I'm talking about the frustration where you feel like the rules were circumvented, or a loophole found—there is a sense of indignation that can arise. I hope we all agree that as players of the game, we should try to eliminate or minimize that latter form of frustration whenever we can.

The question at hand here, I thought, was whether a particular hide might be accepted as legal, but called poor sportsmanship or elitist. For the record, it is my opinion that the cache bflenje initially asked about is legal, sportsmanlike, and is not elitist, but I would suggest it should be listed as a puzzle cache with wording on the cache page to prepare cache hunters somehow that their TOTT bags need to include some form of digital technology. Of course I'm not saying my suggestion is definitive by any means. Implementing it would, however, protect him from some potential complaints about the nature of his cache. After all, it was probably those complaint messages that drove him to open this thread, right?

This summer I found a cache that was just a white plastic bag tied 10 feet up in a sparse cedar tree with a full-size spiral notebook in it. It was unsightly, and not at all much of a challenge, it looked like trash caught in a tree and could be seen from many tens of yards away. It probably would not have passed review if the reviewer fully understood what it was in practice (and it almost certainly didn't start out in the form I found it). Having said that, I can't really point to an objective rule that was broken by this cache. I do think it is a very poor example of a geocache—both for players of the game, and in this case to the general public. But, as Copaman said: It happens. (I'm talking about climb the tree - http://coord.info/GC2T3K4 - in South Minneapolis)

This conversation is more about fairness and elitism as separate from legal and actual. I suggest that the Copaman examples above might not exactly be the best examples of fair play (but then again I can't tell because the true nature of the challenge or puzzle isn't known to me). They certainly don't appear to have broken any official rules. I suspect I might find either one of them fun and interesting, but I would perhaps prefer they had been listed as Mystery caches.

The other day I came upon a sort of "field puzzle" that is listed as a traditional cache. It required me to look at the physical object in front of me, and puzzle out how to get into it. If it had been my cache, I would probably have listed it as a traditional, but with a higher difficulty (as this one did) and would include some text on the cache page to the order of "be sure and bring your thinking cap in your TOTT bag" or the like (as this one did). This was one of the most fun caches I have ever come across, and it not only fair play, I thought it was superb play. (I'm talking about Wicked - http://coord.info/GC4J30T - in Rosemount, Minn.) I can't point to the specific line that wasn't crossed here, but might have been crossed elsewhere. But again, this is about the subjective perception of the game.


Most of the time when a cache is not the type you expected it to be it is because either the user is new and doesn't know (or doesn't care) or they didn't give the reviewer enough information to help them determine what kind of cache it should be.

I found a cache earlier this year that was a traditional posing as a multi. It even stated in the cache description that it was a "two-stage traditional". The best thing to do in those circumstances is to notify a reviewer, give them as much info as possible, and let them handle it.

As for the plastic bag in the tree you mentioned above, RyanTheGr8 placed a whole bunch of caches in South Mpls and then disappeared. Slowly his caches have been archived because of lack of maintenance.
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schmittfamily
Geocacher


Joined: 21 Sep 2012

Posts: 113

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I read in different subject a few months ago that the current direction from Groundspeak to the reviewers is to list multi-stage caches with field puzzles as multicaches.

Edit to add = If I am guessing correctly which cache is the cause of this thread - that is how it is listed.
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Boreal Walker
Geocacher


Joined: 14 Aug 2008

Posts: 229

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copaman wrote:

Challenge listed as Traditional - http://coord.info/GC453C2


Technically, this one has an optional ALR.
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Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5694

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boreal Walker wrote:
Copaman wrote:

Challenge listed as Traditional - http://coord.info/GC453C2


Technically, this one has an optional ALR.


And isn't a challenge.
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BobboTeam
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Jun 2006

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigChiefS4 wrote:
As for the plastic bag in the tree you mentioned above, RyanTheGr8 placed a whole bunch of caches in South Mpls and then disappeared. Slowly his caches have been archived because of lack of maintenance.

Yes, thank you BigChiefS4. I live in South Minneapolis and was aware of RyanTheGr8 and his well-meaning, but underwhelming, participation with geocaching (to put it kindly).

I want to say I realize that by bringing this cache up in the way I did, it's possible someone might think I was trying to criticize the reviewing process. This was definitely not my intention. I fully expect that the review of this cache was appropriate, and then this middle-school- or elementary-school-aged boy was not prepared to keep up and maintain his caches, and that is how it wound up in the condition I and others found it.

The only reason I brought up this cache is as my own illustration in support of Copaman's observation that "it happens" (or perhaps a word that rhymes with "it," which also happens. Wink ).

schmittfamily wrote:
I thought I read in different subject a few months ago that the current direction from Groundspeak to the reviewers is to list multi-stage caches with field puzzles as multicaches. If I am guessing correctly which cache is the cause of this thread - that is how it is listed.

If your memory is accurate regarding the directive that multi-cache should takes precedence over mystery, I guess that seems fair. But that doesn't change my preference that a cache page include some idea about the experience I might have in the field. Nobody really wants things spelled out, and literally the fact that a hide can be frustrating and challenging is kind of the point of the game. If I wasn't sometimes forced to log a DNF, this would be a very boring hobby. Having said that, I'll reiterate what I said earlier: I hope we can all agree that the ideal goal is to maximize challenge and fun, while minimizing undue irritation for the cache hunter?

So, this is intended to support my response to the original question: If QR codes are part of a cache experience, I would prefer that those caches be listed as mystery or multi, but not traditional. And, I would prefer that there be some indication on the cache page that a special digital tool is needed to complete the cache, just as one would be required to do for a Wherigo cache. Bottom line is, I don't know what cache bflentje was asking about, but he got criticism for it. Sounds like it was fair play to me, but if he wants to avoid future criticism and irritation for a limited number of cache hunters, he'll add some sort of clue to the cache page.
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knowschad
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Joined: 20 Jun 2005

Posts: 470

PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As of this month, they are no longer elitist. I now have a smartphone.
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Copaman
MnGCA Board


Joined: 25 May 2011

Posts: 273

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

knowschad wrote:
As of this month, they are no longer elitist. I now have a smartphone.

Smile
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4039

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

knowschad wrote:
As of this month, they are no longer elitist. I now have a smartphone.


ok, the big question.. apple or android? Let's see what kind of elitist you really are Wink
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Copaman
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Joined: 25 May 2011

Posts: 273

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And, here's an elitist travel bug tag Smile
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pfalstad
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Joined: 02 Feb 2006

Posts: 1011

PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as the QR code is on something rigid, not a rolled up piece of paper.. It's a real pain to get those perfectly flat so they can be scanned.
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Gustav129
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Joined: 05 Jan 2014

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not "elitist", but a "Special Tools Required" attribute would be your friend.
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