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Luce Line Regional/Luce Line State confusion by reviewers
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jschlecht
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Oct 2012

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Luce Line Regional/Luce Line State confusion by reviewers Reply with quote

I recently placed two new caches on the Luce Line near the border of Hennepin/Carver counties. The reviewers most likely out of state rejected them saying they were on the Three Rivers trail portion and not allowed. The Three Rivers Regional trail ENDS at Vicksburg in Plymouth and runs EAST. The State trail has a trailhead on the WEST side of Vicksburg and runs WEST. I rechecked both sites and they currently have this information. I hope they recheck their maps, but what can I do to show them their error if they continue to reject them. Thanks, jschlecht

Last edited by jschlecht on Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MNMizzou
Geocacher


Joined: 23 Feb 2005

Posts: 712

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both reviewers are in-state residents. I would suggest providing a link to the evidence you found suggesting the trail is not Three Rivers controlled in any correspondence you have via the reviewer notes in your cache submission page. There may be some other restriction on the urban portions of the trail that we don't know about, both reviewers are usually spot on with these issues.
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mnfishnutz
Geocacher


Joined: 07 May 2009

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have had similar issues with republishing a few archived caches because "they are on Three Rivers Park trail." The reviewers use a software from Three Rivers (correct?) that appears to have significant parts of the trail west of Vicksburg as being under Three Rivers' ownership. Interested to hear the answer again.
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jschlecht
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Oct 2012

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both sites (Three Rivers and the MN DNR) clearly say where the trail starts and ends- you just have to look at it correctly. All the signage out west of Vicksburg is clearly marked by the MN DNR - not Three Rivers.
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King Boreas
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 2440

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a picture of the signs AND your GPSr showing coordinates.

Don't know if that will help. I *think* they're required to use the info from Three Rivers.

You could contact Three Rivers.
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Draconisdax
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Nov 2007

Posts: 982

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I can see on their website...Luce Line is part of the Three Rivers Park District.

I believe the rules for Geocaching there are for the encompassing Park District...not just one trail or park over another...


Geocaching Guidelines

Three Rivers supports geocaching in most of the parks. Please follow the geocaching guidelines when placing or retrieving caches:

Geocaching is allowed in regional parks and park reserves within Three Rivers Park District.
Geocaches must be registered with Three Rivers Park District using the Geocache Site Registration Form.
Geocaching is not allowed at Noerenberg Gardens or The Landing Minnesota River Heritage Park, or on regional trails.
Placement of geocaches is not allowed at the following facilities within parks: golf courses, campgrounds, reservation picnic areas, creative play areas, or beaches.
Placement of geocaches is restricted to within 25 feet of a trail center line, and must not involve disturbance of the park environment.
There is no maximum limit to the number of geocaches placed within a specific park; however, geocaches must not be placed within .25 miles of another geocache.
Placement of geocaches within maintained landscape plantings is prohibited.
Geocaches are not to contain items that are offensive, dangerous, or illegal.
Access to geocaches will be subject to the Park District ordinance including hours of operation, designated trail uses, maintenance standards and natural resources management activities.
Three Rivers Park District retains the right to remove a cache if determined to be in an inappropriate location, or if it is not registered with the Park District.
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Gat R Done
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 29 Dec 2011

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Three Rivers Park District recently provided us with maps of what Three
Rivers Park District Regional Trails were under their jurisdiction. This
portion of the Luce Line Trail is included in their Regional Trail system.
We have been directed not to publish new caches on their Regional Trails.

If you feel there is an error or wish to obtain permission for a cache at
these locations, you would need to contact the Three Rivers Park District.
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As mentioned, we are two in-state residents. We are using the tools and maps provided to us to do our best to publish caches where they can be published and keep them out of off-limits areas.

In this case (and for a number of other park districts) we use data that have been provided to us by the appropriate entity.

For the caches in question, both appear inside Hennepin County on a trail segment that Three Rivers indicated is managed by them.

To answer your question:

Quote:
what can I do to show them their error if they continue to reject them


I'd suggest you follow the original instructions that were provided to you when you questioned Gat R Done about this via email (bold added by me for emphasis):

Quote:
The Three Rivers Park District recently provided us with maps of what Three Rivers Park District Regional Trails were under their jurisdiction. This portion of the Luce Line Trail is included in their Regional Trail system. We have been directed not to publish new caches on their Regional Trails.

If you feel there is an error or wish to obtain permission for a cache at these locations, you would need to contact the Three Rivers Park District.

-Gat R Done
Minnesota Volunteer Geocache Reviewer


I'm unclear why you're asking this question here rather than following the simple guidance already provided to you?
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jschlecht
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Oct 2012

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I talked to Jean Jacobs at Three Rivers this morning and she confirmed that Three Rivers controls the trail EAST of Vicksburg and the state WEST of Vicksburg, just like both sites show and say. http://www.threeriversparks.org/trails/luce-line-trail.aspx
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/state_trails/luce_line/index.html

Hi Joe,
Yes, you are correct. Three Rivers Park District operates the trail east of Vicksburg Lane in Plymouth.
Im not sure what software is used that would give the incorrect information. If you could tell me more I could check into that.

Our website will give you information pertaining to the trail http://www.threeriversparks.org/trails/luce-line-trail.aspx . There is also a map that will show Three Rivers Park District portion of the trail.

If you would like more information on the State portion of the trail, you can visit the DNR webpage at http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/state_trails/luce_line/index.html

If you have further questions, please feel free to contact me.


Jean Jacobs
Public Relations
Three Rivers Park District
3000 Xenium Ln. N
Plymouth, MN 55441
763-559-9000 ext. 0
(fax) 763-694-0145
jjacobs@threeriversparkdistrict.org
Here is the response provided:
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spinowner
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Nov 2004

Posts: 585

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArcherDragoon wrote:
Placement of geocaches is restricted to within 25 feet of a trail center line, and must not involve disturbance of the park environment.

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spinowner
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Joined: 25 Nov 2004

Posts: 585

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gat R Done wrote:
We have been directed not to publish new caches on their Regional Trails.

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spinowner
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Joined: 25 Nov 2004

Posts: 585

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the latter supersede the former?
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Gat R Done
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 29 Dec 2011

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spinowner wrote:
ArcherDragoon wrote:
Placement of geocaches is restricted to within 25 feet of a trail center line, and must not involve disturbance of the park environment.


That's taken a bit out of context. The 25 foot trail center line is referring to trails that are inside the parks where the permit process is in effect.

The policy can be found here: http://www.threeriversparks.org/activities/geocaching-rules.aspx

Here is the complete posting from ArcherDragon of the TRP policy with some important details in bold:



Quote:
Geocaching Guidelines

Three Rivers supports geocaching in most of the parks. Please follow the geocaching guidelines when placing or retrieving caches:

Geocaching is allowed in regional parks and park reserves within Three Rivers Park District.
Geocaches must be registered with Three Rivers Park District using the Geocache Site Registration Form.
Geocaching is not allowed at Noerenberg Gardens or The Landing Minnesota River Heritage Park, or on regional trails.
Placement of geocaches is not allowed at the following facilities within parks: golf courses, campgrounds, reservation picnic areas, creative play areas, or beaches.
Placement of geocaches is restricted to within 25 feet of a trail center line, and must not involve disturbance of the park environment.
There is no maximum limit to the number of geocaches placed within a specific park; however, geocaches must not be placed within .25 miles of another geocache.
Placement of geocaches within maintained landscape plantings is prohibited.
Geocaches are not to contain items that are offensive, dangerous, or illegal.
Access to geocaches will be subject to the Park District ordinance including hours of operation, designated trail uses, maintenance standards and natural resources management activities.
Three Rivers Park District retains the right to remove a cache if determined to be in an inappropriate location, or if it is not registered with the Park District.



At any rate, as Reviewers we use sophisticated tools that utilize the electronic maps provided by Three Rivers Park District (TRPD) to determine if a trail is a TRPD Regional Trail. We do not use pdf maps.

TRPD's maps for the Luce Line Trail, begin at Theodore With Parkway and extend westward across all of Hennepin County to the Carver County Line.

Any changes to that or permission to place new caches on any TRPD Regional Trail would need to come directly from our normal geocache permitting approval contact, not a public relations contact.
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jschlecht
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Oct 2012

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still don't see why my caches are not published. They are on the LUCE LINE STATE TRAIL - not the Luce Line regional trail- look at the maps closely! There are caches east of and west of where I had these placed. Just look at the area. Signage in the area is from the MN DNR and not Three Rivers. I live out here and can tell what is Three Rivers and what is not.
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MNMizzou
Geocacher


Joined: 23 Feb 2005

Posts: 712

PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Might I suggest you follow the advice posted and contact Three Rivers, more specifically the person who coordinates geocache approval, and explain the situation to her so she may clarify the issue for the reviewers. I'm guessing that the reviewers would do all of that legwork for you except Groundspeak won't approve their overtime to do all of that work. Oh wait, never mind, they don't get paid...

PS you can find her name on the PDF used to submit a cache to Three Rivers. I just found it in about 45 seconds of surfing the fancy interwebs. I am guessing she has the email addresses of the reviewers, but I don't know that for a fact.
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