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Commercial Caches
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bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4019

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spinowner wrote:
It occurred to me that a cacher could incorporate a commercial message into the cache page simply by editing it after approval and publication. A reviewer wouldn't be aware of that unless he/she was notified about it by another cacher. (I assume reviewers do not receive notification every time a cache page is edited.) I'm sure that the overwhelming majority of us would not do this, but I would think that there have been cases where a cacher does not understand the policy or is intent on circumventing it.


This is debated endlessly in the national forums.
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spinowner wrote:
It occurred to me that a cacher could incorporate a commercial message into the cache page simply by editing it after approval and publication. A reviewer wouldn't be aware of that unless he/she was notified about it by another cacher. (I assume reviewers do not receive notification every time a cache page is edited.) I'm sure that the overwhelming majority of us would not do this, but I would think that there have been cases where a cacher does not understand the policy or is intent on circumventing it.


I would think that this could be a quick way to get your cache either disabled or archived should Groundspeak figure it out, especially if you were previously asked to remove such content.
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Sharknose Bunnies
Geocacher


Joined: 29 Jun 2009

Posts: 303

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bump...

Just wondering...

It's been over a year since this conversation. Are the rules for event cache listings, etc., still the same?

Thanks!
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK, yes.
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Sharknose Bunnies
Geocacher


Joined: 29 Jun 2009

Posts: 303

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! Much appreciated.

This thread is helpful.
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navychief98
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Sep 2011

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeoPierce wrote:
Moe the Sleaze wrote:
speedysk1 wrote:
GeoPierce wrote:
I recently tried to publish a puzzle cache and it was denied just because I said "NOT AT POSTED COORDINATES (but you can get ice cream there)." I think that's a bit extreme. I didn't name the business and wasn't trying to promote it either. I just needed to specify some bogus coordinates and decided to use an ice cream place because it's a kid themed puzzle.


I agree that's a pretty strict interpretation of the no commercialism clause.


How can a statement that suggests that people can enter the nearby business to buy their product be considered anything but commercial??

Quote:
Commercial caches will not be published on geocaching.com without prior approval from Groundspeak. A commercial cache is a geocache listing or geocache which is perceived by Groundspeak, Groundspeak's employees, or the Volunteer Geocache Reviewers as having been submitted to geocaching.com with the principal or substantial intent of soliciting customers or generating commercial gain. The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, or if the cache listing has overtones of advertising, marketing, or promotion.


I've never even been to this Dairy Queen or know anyone that works there so why would I be trying to solicit customers for the business? Finders are not required to visit the business to solve the puzzle either.



I hold my event at Arby's in West Duluth. I guess I can't do tat anymore. After reading the quoted rule above, holding an event in a restaurant breaks every commercial rule Groundspeak has.
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WestSideDaddy
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 06 Apr 2010

Posts: 559

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it looks like the guidelines where updated on Monday. I wish I had a copy of the previous text to compare it (wayback doesn't have them unfortunately).

The current guidelines are

Quote:

5. Event Caches

[Updated 7/16/2012]

Event caches are gatherings that are organized by geocachers and are open to other geocachers. They are submitted at least two weeks prior to the event so that potential attendees will have sufficient notice to make plans. Events are published no more than three months prior to the event date. Events may be published up to six months prior if an overnight stay is expected or if the event is designed to attract a regional or international group of cachers.

For caching events with several elements, multiple event listings may be submitted if each element stands on its own merits as an event, and meets the listing guidelines. After an event has passed, the listing is archived by the cache owner.

An event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together geocachers for an organized geocache search. Such group hunts are best organized using a discussion forum or an email distribution list.

If an event is already organized outside of the geocaching community, and/or it would take place regardless whether or not it is listed on Geocaching.com, it is likely not an event cache. Examples include music festivals, neighborhood or block parties, and organized sporting events.

Cache owners can include basic information about the location on the cache page, even if it is a commercial location. Event caches, like other geocaches, cannot be published if they do not meet the commercial cache guideline.


I thought there was an exception that would allow it to be held in a restaurant or similar location ?

It says you can include basic information about the location, even if it is a commercial location, but then has to adhere to the non-commercial requirements which exclude going into a business or mentioning a business's name?
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navychief98
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Sep 2011

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WestSideDaddy wrote:
So it looks like the guidelines where updated on Monday. I wish I had a copy of the previous text to compare it (wayback doesn't have them unfortunately).

The current guidelines are

Quote:

5. Event Caches

[Updated 7/16/2012]

Event caches are gatherings that are organized by geocachers and are open to other geocachers. They are submitted at least two weeks prior to the event so that potential attendees will have sufficient notice to make plans. Events are published no more than three months prior to the event date. Events may be published up to six months prior if an overnight stay is expected or if the event is designed to attract a regional or international group of cachers.

For caching events with several elements, multiple event listings may be submitted if each element stands on its own merits as an event, and meets the listing guidelines. After an event has passed, the listing is archived by the cache owner.

An event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together geocachers for an organized geocache search. Such group hunts are best organized using a discussion forum or an email distribution list.

If an event is already organized outside of the geocaching community, and/or it would take place regardless whether or not it is listed on Geocaching.com, it is likely not an event cache. Examples include music festivals, neighborhood or block parties, and organized sporting events.

Cache owners can include basic information about the location on the cache page, even if it is a commercial location. Event caches, like other geocaches, cannot be published if they do not meet the commercial cache guideline.


I thought there was an exception that would allow it to be held in a restaurant or similar location ?

It says you can include basic information about the location, even if it is a commercial location, but then has to adhere to the non-commercial requirements which exclude going into a business or mentioning a business's name?



See what I mean? I love parties! I hope this doesn't mean I must STOP having them?
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RudeRat
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 09 Jul 2008

Posts: 788

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Event caches are gatherings that are organized by geocachers and are open to other geocachers.

Does this mean that geocaching events can not be open to the general public? What makes you a “Geocacher” in the eyes of Groundspeak, setting up a geocaching account on their site?
_________________
Ahhhhhhhh, the power of cheese!
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WestSideDaddy
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 06 Apr 2010

Posts: 559

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, and the guidelines would prohibit KBs party on the patio (at the Canterbury horse track) since that is an organized sport event that will occur regardless of the event cache.
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Sharknose Bunnies
Geocacher


Joined: 29 Jun 2009

Posts: 303

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WestSideDaddy wrote:
Yeah, and the guidelines would prohibit KBs party on the patio (at the Canterbury horse track) since that is an organized sport event that will occur regardless of the event cache.


I'm not sure I read it that way.

I would think the intent here is to not create an event called "Minnesota Twins vs. Detroit Tigers," where you just have to go to the game to log the cache, and there is no intentional gathering of cachers.

In KB's case, there is a distinct and unique geocaching event inside the larger sporting venue. The event that KB organizes would not happen if he didn't organize it, although it takes place within the larger sporting event.

I don't think the guideline is worded all that clearly, but that's often how I feel about Groundspeak's guidelines. It would be helpful if they would include the reasoning behind the rule to help geocachers to understand it better.
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharknose Bunnies wrote:
WestSideDaddy wrote:
Yeah, and the guidelines would prohibit KBs party on the patio (at the Canterbury horse track) since that is an organized sport event that will occur regardless of the event cache.


I'm not sure I read it that way.

I would think the intent here is to not create an event called "Minnesota Twins vs. Detroit Tigers," where you just have to go to the game to log the cache, and there is no intentional gathering of cachers.

In KB's case, there is a distinct and unique geocaching event inside the larger sporting venue. The event that KB organizes would not happen if he didn't organize it, although it takes place within the larger sporting event.


I agree with that interpretation (and have had similar discussions with others in the past).

It would be no different than holding an event at a restaurant - people go there to eat anyway - the difference is that people are going there for the purposes of the event, and they wouldn't otherwise be going there at that time.

Quote:
I don't think the guideline is worded all that clearly, but that's often how I feel about Groundspeak's guidelines. It would be helpful if they would include the reasoning behind the rule to help geocachers to understand it better.


The guidelines are written with some latitude in them. Sometimes it's frustrating, sometimes it's useful.
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RudeRat wrote:
Quote:
Event caches are gatherings that are organized by geocachers and are open to other geocachers.

Does this mean that geocaching events can not be open to the general public? What makes you a “Geocacher” in the eyes of Groundspeak, setting up a geocaching account on their site?


They can be open to the general public - the guideline doesn't exclude that.

I would interpret a "geocacher" to be someone who geocaches, regardless of the site account.
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Gat R Done
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 29 Dec 2011

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Cache owners can include basic information about the location on the cache page, even if it is a commercial location. Event caches, like other geocaches, cannot be published if they do not meet the commercial cache guideline.


It's still OK to include the venue's name for an event. Just no links or endorsements, as has always been the case.
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navychief98
Geocacher


Joined: 11 Sep 2011

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gat R Done wrote:
Quote:
Cache owners can include basic information about the location on the cache page, even if it is a commercial location. Event caches, like other geocaches, cannot be published if they do not meet the commercial cache guideline.


It's still OK to include the venue's name for an event. Just no links or endorsements, as has always been the case.




Gat R Done, would you and MN: Fruitcake please elaborate on what an "endorsement" is for us party planners.
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