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Challenge Cache guidelines
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MN.Fruitcake
Minnesota Reviewer


Joined: 18 Oct 2010

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: Challenge Cache guidelines Reply with quote

FYI, the guidelines for challenge caches have been updated/clarified slightly. If you're planning on create a challenge cache, you may want to take a look:

http://support.groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=206
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rosebud55112
Geocacher


Joined: 03 May 2008

Posts: 121

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I swear I had nothing to do with this (AFAIK)
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WestSideDaddy
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 06 Apr 2010

Posts: 559

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who decides what the guidelines are? It it strictly the whim of gc.com or do they consult or solicit feedback from geocachers?
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swfan
Geocacher


Joined: 23 Feb 2008

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are the changes from previous?
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WestSideDaddy
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 06 Apr 2010

Posts: 559

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Challenge caches cannot include restrictions based on 'date found'; caches found before the challenge cache publication date can count towards the achievement of the challenge.


This is a bad change in my opinion. Why would they want to require that all past find count. Why shouldn't the CO get to set that. There's upsides to both ways, inclusive date help the long time cachers, exclusive favors the newer cachers.

Seems like a bad rule to me. And of course there's no recall process for the "guidelines".
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King Boreas
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 2424
Location: Exploring Minnesota

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: Challenge Cache guidelines Reply with quote

MN.Fruitcake wrote:
FYI, the guidelines for challenge caches have been updated/clarified slightly. If you're planning on create a challenge cache, you may want to take a look:


http://support.groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=206

Did I miss it? Are previous Challenges "grandfathered' Question

Are current requirements still "enforceable" Question
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minnstars
Geocacher


Joined: 18 Sep 2008

Posts: 298

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Challenge Cache guidelines Reply with quote

King Boreas wrote:
MN.Fruitcake wrote:
FYI, the guidelines for challenge caches have been updated/clarified slightly. If you're planning on create a challenge cache, you may want to take a look:


http://support.groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=206

Did I miss it? Are previous Challenges "grandfathered' Question

Are current requirements still "enforceable" Question


Good Question! Rolling Eyes
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minnstars
Geocacher


Joined: 18 Sep 2008

Posts: 298

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not kept up on all the previous rule changes, but a few things jumped out at me:

"Reviewers may ask the cache owner to demonstrate that they have previously met the challenge and/or that a substantial number of other geocachers would be able to do so." - The new "Welcome To" challenge that Bobcam published comes to mind.

". Challenge caches relying solely on third-party software for verification will not be published." - How does one look at ones's "My Finds" PQ without using somekind of 3rd party software? This is subjective in any case, but clearly there are many challeneges out there where using GSAK makes it far simpler.

3. Challenge cache must avoid undue restrictions. Specifically:
1. Challenge caches based on a specific list of caches, such as caches placed by a specific person or group, will generally not be published.
2. Challenge caches cannot include restrictions based on 'date found'; caches found before the challenge cache publication date can count towards the achievement of the challenge.
- These rules are clearly new. Lots of challenges out there that have both these restrictions. I don't like 1>, as to 2> I'm fine with this since I often qualify for challenges, but then have to go do them again because my previous finds don't count.

11. If a challenge cache is submitted within an area where a similar challenge cache already exists, then it will need to have a unique list of qualifying criteria (geocaches, waymarks, etc.). - Well there has been a lot of this going on lately! Shocked
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pfalstad
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Feb 2006

Posts: 1007
Location: Edina

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Challenge caches cannot include restrictions based on 'date found'; caches found before the challenge cache publication date can count towards the achievement of the challenge.

WOO HOO!!!! Very Happy Very Happy No more challenges that say, "to make a level playing field for everyone, I'm going to force more experienced cachers to drive 80 miles to find qualifying caches they haven't already found."
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rosebud55112
Geocacher


Joined: 03 May 2008

Posts: 121

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pfalstad wrote:
Quote:
Challenge caches cannot include restrictions based on 'date found'; caches found before the challenge cache publication date can count towards the achievement of the challenge.

WOO HOO!!!! Very Happy Very Happy No more challenges that say, "to make a level playing field for everyone, I'm going to force more experienced cachers to drive 80 miles to find qualifying caches they haven't already found."


I go the other way on this. If I challenge you to do something, it seems to me I'm requiring you to do something in the future. You're certainly welcome to say "I've already done that, I've got nothing to prove" but you haven't met my challenge.

Which is not to say that I haven't taken advantage of my past finds when completing challenges if the CO allows, but in my perfect world the CO would have the right to say "Start anew" just as you have the right to say "No thanks."

I'd rather see people be held responsible for the results of choices they made during their time as geocachers, than before that time. So if someone made a challenge saying "After publication of this challenge, find 5 MN Wherigo caches," I'd have to live with the fact that I've chosen to already get most of them. That seems fairer to me than saying to a new cacher "Gee, you should have started this game long ago. "

A good challenge should be challenging, and have the right difficulty rating for it. If my past actions-even if made in ignorance of the then nonexistent challenge- make completing the challenge tougher for me, then sobeit.
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rosebud55112
Geocacher


Joined: 03 May 2008

Posts: 121

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I'm saying that the CO should have the right to say "I challenge you to do this," not just "I challenge you to have done this."

Although admittedly, the second method makes it easier to show that a significant portion of the geocaching population has the ability to complete the challenge.
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RudeRat
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 09 Jul 2008

Posts: 784

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rosebud55112 wrote:
I guess I'm saying that the CO should have the right to say "I challenge you to do this," not just "I challenge you to have done this."

What makes you thing CO's have rights? CO's have rules bestowed upon them from the creator. The creator can giveth and the creator can taketh away. In this case he taketh, but he did giveth the other challenge type a while ago.
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swfan
Geocacher


Joined: 23 Feb 2008

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pfalstad wrote:
Quote:
Challenge caches cannot include restrictions based on 'date found'; caches found before the challenge cache publication date can count towards the achievement of the challenge.

WOO HOO!!!! Very Happy Very Happy No more challenges that say, "to make a level playing field for everyone, I'm going to force more experienced cachers to drive 80 miles to find qualifying caches they haven't already found."


Isn't part of the point of doing challenges to go out and find more caches? How is it fun to do a challenge that you don't have to do anything for? It doesn't seem very satisfying to me.
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pfalstad
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Feb 2006

Posts: 1007
Location: Edina

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swfan wrote:
pfalstad wrote:
Quote:
Challenge caches cannot include restrictions based on 'date found'; caches found before the challenge cache publication date can count towards the achievement of the challenge.

WOO HOO!!!! Very Happy Very Happy No more challenges that say, "to make a level playing field for everyone, I'm going to force more experienced cachers to drive 80 miles to find qualifying caches they haven't already found."

Isn't part of the point of doing challenges to go out and find more caches? How is it fun to do a challenge that you don't have to do anything for? It doesn't seem very satisfying to me.

Well, ok, but maybe I'm not completely finished with the challenge. The example I'm thinking of is when the Geo-Stalker series came out and he said that some % of the caches had to be found after the date the challenge was published. I had just finished finding almost all of Paklid's caches shortly before that, no small feat, so I was quite annoyed that I wouldn't be able to stalk Paklid (since I didn't have enough unfound caches left to meet the requirement). I assure you, knowing that I had found most of the caches before the cutoff date would definitely not have reduced my fun and satisfaction in completing the challenge, had that requirement not been there.

Another thing that I don't care for is the "find some number of ultra-rare caches or combinations of caches in one day". This actually has nothing to do with the "date found" restriction, but it's related because I can't use caches I already found, unless I happened to do it right the first time by chance. I still have unfound virtuals lying around that I haven't gotten because I'm saving them in case another "find X icons in one day plus one more icon type that was just created" challenge comes out.

So yeah, I still enjoy the challenges that have me go out and find more caches, but the challenges that make me repeat work I've already done, or that cause me avoid caches so that I can find them on the correct day, those I don't enjoy so much.
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swfan
Geocacher


Joined: 23 Feb 2008

Posts: 108

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pfalstad wrote:
swfan wrote:
pfalstad wrote:
Quote:
Challenge caches cannot include restrictions based on 'date found'; caches found before the challenge cache publication date can count towards the achievement of the challenge.

WOO HOO!!!! Very Happy Very Happy No more challenges that say, "to make a level playing field for everyone, I'm going to force more experienced cachers to drive 80 miles to find qualifying caches they haven't already found."

Isn't part of the point of doing challenges to go out and find more caches? How is it fun to do a challenge that you don't have to do anything for? It doesn't seem very satisfying to me.

Well, ok, but maybe I'm not completely finished with the challenge. The example I'm thinking of is when the Geo-Stalker series came out and he said that some % of the caches had to be found after the date the challenge was published. I had just finished finding almost all of Paklid's caches shortly before that, no small feat, so I was quite annoyed that I wouldn't be able to stalk Paklid (since I didn't have enough unfound caches left to meet the requirement). I assure you, knowing that I had found most of the caches before the cutoff date would definitely not have reduced my fun and satisfaction in completing the challenge, had that requirement not been there.

Another thing that I don't care for is the "find some number of ultra-rare caches or combinations of caches in one day". This actually has nothing to do with the "date found" restriction, but it's related because I can't use caches I already found, unless I happened to do it right the first time by chance. I still have unfound virtuals lying around that I haven't gotten because I'm saving them in case another "find X icons in one day plus one more icon type that was just created" challenge comes out.

So yeah, I still enjoy the challenges that have me go out and find more caches, but the challenges that make me repeat work I've already done, or that cause me avoid caches so that I can find them on the correct day, those I don't enjoy so much.


I understand were your comming from. I see both sides of the argument. I'm sure someone could come up with a dozen reasons to have it the way it was and someone else could come up with a dozen reasons the other way.

I just think they should have left it up to the CO to decide, it's been working fine that way for 10 + years. What is reason for the change now?
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