MnGCA Home MnGCA
Minnesota Geocaching Association
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   User listUser list   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Skirt Lifters in a Parking Lot
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MnGCA Forum Index -> General
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
RonGerth
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Apr 2008

Posts: 103

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject: Skirt Lifters in a Parking Lot Reply with quote

OK, I have a question for the masses. I have been caching in several different states and in several different cities in MN and in all of them there have been the traditional skirt lifters in parking lots. I have known people who have placed them but have not placed any myself like that.

The question. We have had a series of 4 of them just pop up in Duluth. All of them are in parking lots for either a mall or a large grocery/large box store. A couple of the people up here are questioning whether or not permission was granted for placing them. I am not a huge fan of this type of cache but can see where a person with a large motor home, a person who is having a hard time getting around or just a person who likes that type of cache would like them. Personally I will hunt them because they are there............. Do people in other places get permission from Walmart, Kmart, Target, MOA and places like that prior to placing them? Is this a move by a segment of the population of cachers to try to "censor" the cache types in an area? I realize that they are gonna get muggled and go away quickly but I guess that if the person who placed them is OK with that who am I to throw rocks.

I am not trying to start trouble here but do think that this is something that I would like an answer for.

Thanks

Ron Gerth
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5709

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You already know a great deal of my feelings on the matter based on our conversation at two of them as well as my subsequent logs.

Geocaching.com requires that the cache hider obtain permission but doesn't require the approver to verify (or even state) that such permission was obtained. By not stating that the permission was obtained it's implied that it was (it's implied that the hider is following the rule about obtaining permission just like he/she should be following the other rules, such as not burying, etc). Well, actually it's a little more than implied as the cache hider checks a box at the bottom of the form stating that the rules were all followed.

I have yet to hear of a skirt lifter that was approved by the property owner. Hopefully someone will point *one* out...?

I'm not fond of skirt lifters at all. I do them because they are there, as you do, but I'd rather find a cache that someone put some time into creating and not have to worry about mall security pulling up behind me.

I'll be the first to admit that I pull the rule book out in an attempt to "censor" these caches. It's because of the quality of the cache but also, and perhaps more importantly, because the cache doesn't follow the rules, putting the cache finder in jeopardy of winding up in trouble.

As many know, I've had my experiences in caches that don't follow the rules. Thankfully mine didn't end up as problematic as bflentje's.
_________________
Hmm...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
RonGerth
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Apr 2008

Posts: 103

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We agree about the skirt lifters and I did not mention your name because I did not want (and do not want) to throw rocks your way. I have noticed at least one other cacher asking it too. I wonder if this is a grey area that should just be left grey. Most of those stores are owned by people in other places and contact would be difficult. While I do not hide them I have had at least one person in a wheel chair find a cache that I had placed in a park in the town I used to live in and he told me (was a local guy who was getting into the hobby) that he was glad that they were there for him to hunt. He was not able to get out onto the trail to tromp around (or wheel around I guess) the terrain that I had placed other caches in. I really hate to see them flood an area and edge out other good caches sites (my example of the magnetic key holder on the gutter drain of the men's room being too close to a neat historical marker so I cuoldn't put a cache there comes from here) but I also guess that as long as one does not become a huge deal I would just as soon see them in place. I also like caches that I have to work to solve or that take me to some place really neat that I would not have found before. If the mall cops throw a fit I would explain caching to them and if it is still a big deal I would tell the cache owner to pull it. I have not gotten into trouble with cache placement and do not want to so I will continue to follow my routine of contacting the powers that be for that chunk of land before I place the cache.

Like I said PH, not trying to start trouble but also not so sure that I want to have somebody censoring caches for the same reason that I do not want somebody to start to censor my political speech (I am one of those evil Republicans) for fear that the power to censor will evolve into something that it should not.

Just my thoughts. Have a nice day, it was nice meeting and talking to you both times last night.

Ron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5709

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RonGerth wrote:
We agree about the skirt lifters and I did not mention your name because I did not want (and do not want) to throw rocks your way.


I've had quite a few rocks thrown my way over time - I'm used to it. Smile

Quote:
Like I said PH, not trying to start trouble but also not so sure that I want to have somebody censoring caches for the same reason that I do not want somebody to start to censor my political speech


I guess the real difference here is that the caches are not legitimate to begin with, so perhaps my choice of supporting the word "censor" was not correct. I'm not in favor of caches that don't follow the guidelines, especially those that jeopardize other caches by clearly demonstrating that cachers don't follow the published rules. It's this type of behavior that led to the initial ban of geocaching in Minnesota State parks, and I also believe it had an integral part in the Anoka County ban.

I'm not in favor of "censoring" caches that follow the rules. There are numerous caches out there that I'm not fond of at all, for various reasons (difficulty, puzzle obscureness, lack of creativity, etc), but I try not to actively oppose them as they are legit just like most other caches.
_________________
Hmm...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
RonGerth
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Apr 2008

Posts: 103

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure what happened in Anoka County with that ban but would assume that caches were placed that were pretty bad, either from the stand point of placement, container selection or something like that. I understand that not following the rules can lead to a geocaching ban and hope that it doesn't happen but I also know that the saying that to a degree it is easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission figures in here. If a cache becomes an issue then I say get rid of it, either through Surfer Joe or peer pressure. I just can't see how a 35mm canister hidden in a heavily travelled parking lot is gonna cause problems so I think that this is one rule that should stay "grey" for as long as possible. Others, schools, bridges, railroads and etc there is no grey room at all.

Just my 2 cents worth,

Ron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5709

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard different things regarding the Anoka County ban, but one of the stories I heard from an official at the county was that it was due to contra-band being placed in a cache.

The DNR ban came directly from cachers placing caches in State Parks without permission from the parks. It took many years to reverse the ban.
_________________
Hmm...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5709

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do hope that others chime in here though - it wasn't my intent to monopolize the conversation, but merely to offer my point of view.
_________________
Hmm...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
EPMinnesota
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 13 Apr 2006

Posts: 1944

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without giving anything away (I hope) I do have a cache that could be considered a skirt lifter in a retail area parking lot. I did, however, obtain permission from the store manager to do so. While I will log the occasional skirt lifting find, I don't really find most of them enjoyable. Except maybe ones like the one at the HUB on 66th and Nicollet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
casinoman
Geocacher


Joined: 26 Mar 2008

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were a few caches not long ago that the collector put out. If I remeber correctly not one of them was a SL but he had to take all of them out. There were 5 all around the Burnisville mall. They were all well hidden. You did not have to do any lifting just good old looking. When I found them I did not even have to do alot of searching. They were the kind of cache that was just there. If you knew what you were looking for you saw them. Not great but not hard eather. I don't remeber why he had to pull them but he did.
_________________
---------------------------------------------------
I may grow old, But I will never grow up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bflentje
Geocacher


Joined: 29 May 2006

Posts: 4061

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pear Head wrote:
You already know a great deal of my feelings on the matter based on our conversation at two of them as well as my subsequent logs.

Geocaching.com requires that the cache hider obtain permission but doesn't require the approver to verify (or even state) that such permission was obtained. By not stating that the permission was obtained it's implied that it was (it's implied that the hider is following the rule about obtaining permission just like he/she should be following the other rules, such as not burying, etc). Well, actually it's a little more than implied as the cache hider checks a box at the bottom of the form stating that the rules were all followed.

I have yet to hear of a skirt lifter that was approved by the property owner. Hopefully someone will point *one* out...?

I'm not fond of skirt lifters at all. I do them because they are there, as you do, but I'd rather find a cache that someone put some time into creating and not have to worry about mall security pulling up behind me.

I'll be the first to admit that I pull the rule book out in an attempt to "censor" these caches. It's because of the quality of the cache but also, and perhaps more importantly, because the cache doesn't follow the rules, putting the cache finder in jeopardy of winding up in trouble.

As many know, I've had my experiences in caches that don't follow the rules. Thankfully mine didn't end up as problematic as bflentje's.


I respect your right to have your own opinion. But as far as I am concerned, your opinion is ONLY valid if you never acquire a smiley from one rendering you not being hypocritical (that's if I read it right). And that's only my lame opinion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5709

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bflentje wrote:
I respect your right to have your own opinion. But as far as I am concerned, your opinion is ONLY valid if you never acquire a smiley from one rendering you not being hypocritical (that's if I read it right). And that's only my lame opinion.


I find them because they're there (sort of like Ron I guess). If I had to choose a SL over an ammo can then the ammo can would win every time. It's hard to know sometimes that you're doing a SL until, well, you've lifted the skirt. But I understand your point, and it's a good one.
_________________
Hmm...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
casinoman
Geocacher


Joined: 26 Mar 2008

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have to say a cache is a cache if one say's they hate SL'S then you can tell when you are heading for one. If that is the truth then why look. I would not say I hate them but they are not my favorite cache out there. but hey I have seen some that have you guessing even after you have lifted.
But as for me I would never turn down a Very Happy
_________________
---------------------------------------------------
I may grow old, But I will never grow up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
IanNMissy
Geocacher


Joined: 24 Apr 2009

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skirt lifter? Guess I've never heard of this type of cache. I take it it must be an urban micro of some type? I'm not a real fan of the micro, at least not until I get some more time figuring out the different logic that goes in to most hides...

but - I do believe that any type of micro that doesn't follow the guidelines shouldn't be allowed, but I do respect the needs of folks who aren't able to go off trail to find things too.. There's got to be a happy medium.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hunter-Killer
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Apr 2009

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah skirt lifters. Pretty obvious you are about to do one, and if that is what the cache owner has presented, fine. But given these days of tinted windows, and here you are in a busy parking lot, guess what ? When we go for one, We do not use discretion as I would other caches. You want to put one in a busy parking lot? fine, We will do it, but if ten people are sitting in their cars in a mall parking lot watching us behind their tinted windows, well that's the cache owners problem, not mine.

If we have traveled 400 k.m's to go caching and we pull up to a well placed and well done cache and people are around, we pass, but when you pull up to a skirt lifter in a place that you know, and the cache owner knows is a busy place, then, how in the world do we know that someone is not watching from their vehicle? We do it, and hope the cache owner is not replacing it the next dnf.

I guess it's a hide, usually does not bring you to anything of scenic value, we have all seen malls, and lamp posts, so the way we see it is an easy find, that we will not remember in a day or so. Make us work for a find, and we will remember.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
King Boreas
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 2442

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anoka County had a troll activist who emailed lies to the top Parks people.

glisher never had any finds and didn't even live in Anoka County. The contraband was a trade item, not original swag.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MnGCA Forum Index -> General All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Geocaching Cache Icons, Copyright 2009, Groundspeak Inc. All rights reserved. Used with Permission.