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Centris and the thousand bugs
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PeakShift
Geocacher


Joined: 15 Aug 2003

Posts: 28
Location: St. Paul MN

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree that finding a bug in a cache but not moving it could warrant a
"find" - but seeing a bug (at BW3 for instance) and posting this as a "find" is horse of a completely different color. - and shouldnt be accepted as a find.

If that were the case- then my seeing the Winter Carnival Medallion on TV aftre it was found would also give me credit for finding it?
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pogopod
Geocacher


Joined: 26 Jan 2003

Posts: 113
Location: White Bear Lake

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:13 am    Post subject: finds Reply with quote

My gripe with the change is that despite the fact that I did not log every bug that I saw and touched as a "find". they are gone. I have followed the travels of many of those bugs that I found but didn't "find" and now they have all been taken off of my list. I don't care about the numbers, there is no payment made for a high number of "finds". Is it the end of the world? No, of course not. Does it take a lot of the fun of caching away for me? Yes it does. I will not send groundspeak any more money for bug tags or cache labels, and I am rethinking my level of participation in this activity. I have had a lot of fun in the last year and met a lot of nice folks. I figure that in membership, tags, etc. I have sent groundspeak over $150.00. They could at least have the courtesy to grandfather the lists when they make a change like this.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: finds Reply with quote

pogopod wrote:
I have sent groundspeak over $150.00. They could at least have the courtesy to grandfather the lists when they make a change like this.

If you go to your public profile page, goto User Stats, and click on the travel bug you will see all the bugs you have found and noted on. In fact, they are easier to view and work with here than they were on the /my/ page.

Silent Bob
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Sad state of affairs.
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Centris
Past MnGCA Chair


Joined: 27 Nov 2002

Posts: 620
Location: Southwest WY

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: finds Reply with quote

pogopod wrote:
They could at least have the courtesy to grandfather the lists when they make a change like this.

I can't see how "seeing" a bug is breaking the rules as they were defined before this change. Why was "write a note" even offered as a logging option if it was not ever intended to be part of the game?
We were all playing the rules that were correct at the time when we posted the "seen it, left it" notes. I don't disagree with the new bug moving guidelines, I disagree with the retroactive penalties associated with it.

I have emailed Jeremy to ask him to grandfather everyone's previous "notes" and all our previous bug and coin stats and put them back on our pages and back into our found inventories.
I encourage everyone else to do the same. We have some terrific professional, intelligent and articulate writers among our membership... I think we could make a convincing case for grandfathering.

To make any new rules retroactive is not fair to ANYONE, even those who are not active bug movers..... this precident of retroactive disregarding of legitimate logs WILL affect everyone when they next change some other aspect of geo-caching...... just wait.

BTW -- just for those who think this is all about ME.... I am no longer bug moving and had announced my retirement from that aspect of the game months ago. It is not about the numbers any more..... It is the principle of this change that has upset me. What other game do ANY of us play where they constantly change the rules and retroactivly penalize the players this way? Confused

Even the government Razz does not make laws and rules retroactive this way.... there is always some sort of grandfather clause.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: finds Reply with quote

Centris wrote:
I can't see how "seeing" a bug is breaking the rules as they were defined before this change. Why was "write a note" even offered as a logging option if it was not ever intended to be part of the game?

As far as I understand it they never intended for "noting" to count as a find but I can't see how they just missed it. I suppose because people frown on "noting" out West they just didn't realize it was a problem.

Quote:
I don't disagree with the new bug moving guidelines, I disagree with the retroactive penalties associated with it.

Perhaps they assume that most of the notes were from group events and not caches where you were unable to move the bug... Maybe they see this as going against travelbug nature?

Quote:
this precident of retroactive disregarding of legitimate logs WILL affect everyone when they next change some other aspect of geo-caching...... just wait.

What do you suppose they could add to the list?

Silent Bob
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Centris
Past MnGCA Chair


Joined: 27 Nov 2002

Posts: 620
Location: Southwest WY

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: finds Reply with quote

Marsha and Silent Bob wrote:
What do you suppose they could add to the list?

TNLN -- is it REALLY a find???
You SAW the cache but you didn't take anything.... not a find

It's the principle of the thing --- even the government doesn't act this way
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PeakShift
Geocacher


Joined: 15 Aug 2003

Posts: 28
Location: St. Paul MN

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can't see how "seeing" a bug is breaking the rules as they were defined before this change.


I cant recall reading anything in the TB pages on posting a note, and not moving it along? They are meant to travel. When picked up, you log the bug. Did I miss something?

Quote:
I don't disagree with the new bug moving guidelines, I disagree with the retroactive penalties associated with it.


If its Not about the stats, then why does it matter? What "penalty" are you suffering? As mentioned above, in your profile once you click the bug -ALL your bugs still appear, the count there is unchanged, isnt it? Its either about the stats, or its not Question

Fixing the software, retroactively is the only logical way to do it. It was erronusly counting notes as finds. The problem was corrected, back to the beggining. Of course my count was not affected so maybe Im just biased?

A legitimate "log" would be a "Find" A Note, is usually for informational purposes - like "Ill be dropping this bug sat 2/14" or something?


Quote:
TNLN -- is it REALLY a find??? You SAW the cache but you didn't take anything.... not a find


When you were at the coord's, in the woods, located the cache and signed the log - then it is a find. That IS geocaching, isnt it?
Its when you log online,but forget to sign the log at the cache -well now that could be considered a No Find - since there is No "proof" you ever really were there.

What part does a seeing a bug at a breakfast get-together play? None.

Sorry, but I doubt Jeremy will "feel your pain" - especially once he looks into the 40% ratio. Now that is a stat worth noting.......
(or logging?)
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Centris
Past MnGCA Chair


Joined: 27 Nov 2002

Posts: 620
Location: Southwest WY

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardware wrote:
Sorry, but I doubt Jeremy will "feel your pain" - especially once he looks into the 40% ratio. Now that is a stat worth noting.......

I'm not having any pain..... however there are cachers all over the US frantically going through their old bug records, virtually picking up old noted Tbugs and dropping them here and there. You would not believe the amount of postdated finds, grabs and drops my own and my kid's Tbugs have gotten over the past days. People changing their logs to grabs. Lots of Bugs in people's inventory that they don't actually have possession of. It will be a mess before it is over.

I have not re-logged anything. My count sits as it is because I retired from bug moving and I meant it when I did it. If I REALLY wanted to get my stats back, I would go through my records and do hours and hours of grabs and drops just like all these others are doing. I am not doing that and will not do that. This is not about the numbers.

You can ask Jeremy to restore everybody's stats BUT mine if he wants... I honestly don't care. You think this only affects me?

You also think I only see Tbugs at events, eh? Who do you think it is that BRINGS the most Tbugs to the events? I see most of my bugs AT caches.... really.

I remember a time when a certain geocacher was complaining that I was skunking him on all sorts of Tbugs over here near my area.... If you would recall, I spent a full three weeks logging just "peeks" at all the bugs that I found in caches just so he could get one or two, which he eventually did. Lots of folks have been to caches directly after me and found the Tbug I left behind for the next finder. Do those count as finds?? Apparently not.

I'm not asking to have the new rule changed, just grandfather those who were playing the game and competing according to the old rules. They have not done anything wrong.

You're making biased blanket statements based on your assumptions about me, you don't know me and.... this is not about me.
Confused What other hobby or game would treat it's players this way?
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Lyverbird
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 17 Oct 2003

Posts: 443
Location: Annandale, MN

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure Jeremy's rule change really changes things for dear Centris. In MN, she will always be recognised for her accomplishment, which will stand with us, regardless of what Jeramy's data base say's. We know what she accomplised and how hard she worked for it. That's what really counts. Centris got her 1,000 and I'm proud of her. Jermemy's count, doesn't matter.
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Centris
Past MnGCA Chair


Joined: 27 Nov 2002

Posts: 620
Location: Southwest WY

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: finds Reply with quote

Marsha and Silent Bob wrote:
What do you suppose they could add to the list?

1 - Virtual caches..... no container, no paper log = not really a find, many can find the needed info on Google
2 - Reverse caches..... no container, no paper log, loose rules = not really a find
3 - Event caches.... no container, very loose rules = not really a find
4 - CITO caches.... no container, no paper log = not really a find
5 - Benchmarks..... no container, no paper log = not really a find

If Jeremy and crew suddenly decided that any cache you only "saw" or "attended" was not an actual find and deemed any of these types of caches not worthy of credit any more........then retroactively deleted people's numbers, there would be an unbelievable uproar. MadMadMadMadMad

Even if you never participated in any of this type of caching and the geo-gods suddenly decided to disregard people's legitimate logs from these, wouldn't you think it would be fair to grandfather those in since it was the rule of the game at the time it was logged?

I have never found a benchmark, not interested at all in them, but if gc suddenly (hypothetically) decided they would only count those that were found on a weekday and delete the ones found on weekends, I would be upset about that. It is not fair to those who were playing the game as the rules apply right now. It is the principle of the thing.

There are those who have a love/hate relationship with virtuals, there are those who have a love/hate relationship with locationless..... etc. There are those who have a love/hate relationship with Travel Bugs, but they are all part of the same game.... you think he WON'T suddenly change something you are interested in and say it was never intended to be this way?

Jeremy can say till he is blue in the face that noted bugs were never intended to be counted as finds..... Why then were they counted in the stats for so many years? Why was "write a note" even given as option?
........See a Tbug, take a picture, write a note, your count goes up one. This cannot be a sudden surprise to him that people were logging Tbugs this way. Rolling Eyes

Or if he wants to diferentiate... Idea make a list of "moved Tbugs" and "seen Tbugs" just like he divided the categories for caches and multi-caches.... problem solved.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: finds Reply with quote

Centris wrote:

1 - Virtual caches..... no container, no paper log = not really a find, many can find the needed info on Google
2 - Reverse caches..... no container, no paper log, loose rules = not really a find
3 - Event caches.... no container, very loose rules = not really a find
4 - CITO caches.... no container, no paper log = not really a find
5 - Benchmarks..... no container, no paper log = not really a find

I suppose that some others would care if these were eliminated. I *only* do virtuals that are in the immediate area of another cache I am going for. I certainly don't go out of my way to do them even though Marsha prefers them.

I refuse to do Locationless caches as they are not actual caches.

Event caches are a different animal all together but if they were removed from the totals I wouldn't get upset.

I do CITO when I feel it is necessary, I don't need to log it as a find.

Benchmarks aren't for me either and the only one I have logged was as a part of RJ's EZ BMs...

I don't agree w/everything that Jeremy does (and I am quite vocal about it) but I only partially disagree with this move.

Silent Bob
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PeakShift
Geocacher


Joined: 15 Aug 2003

Posts: 28
Location: St. Paul MN

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well its an eaasy one:

Quote:
Virtual caches - no container, no paper log = not really a find, many can find the needed info on Google


virtual caches usually require an email to the "hider:" sstating a specific item, feature, etc before its "allowed" as a "find - Google cant "see" the initials engraved, etc... . . . . . .00

Quote:
2 - Reverse caches..... no container, no paper log, loose rules = not really a find


Again, a picute, and Coords required. basically a place on this earth WHERE you found The item in question

Quote:
3 - Event caches.... no container, very loose rules = not really a find


I AGREE COMPLETLY

Quote:
4 - CITO caches.... no container, no paper log = not really a find


IMO, SB done, as mentioned, "just becasue your there" - I dont need credit for that on some website - I do it for the satisfaction gained from Doing IT

Quote:
5 - Benchmarks - no container, no paper log = not really a find


I dont care much about them, but it seems Ive had to defend most all kinds of mY "finds", so OK= I was interseted to learn that there were Many BM's near the places I frequent - So I went to them, shot Pics, took coord's - basically ProveD I was There!- then posted as per req'd - And left it at that.

There is NO note that I know of that can place you at a cache, to find a bug without BEING THERE- IMO
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Centris
Past MnGCA Chair


Joined: 27 Nov 2002

Posts: 620
Location: Southwest WY

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You two both missed my point.... got caught up in the first part of the post which was an answer to SB's question, hit reply and disregarded the point of it..... which was *ALL the elements of the game are interrelated and subject to rule changes on a whim*. Whether you like those aspects of the game or not is irrelevant to the point I was making.

It is about fairness in the game. NO other game or hobby would treat it's players this way.

~~~~~~~example~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let's say the "football gods" suddenly decided that only touchdowns were "worthy" of points scored. They decided that field goals were never intended to be counted and they went back in time and retroactively took away the points for every field goal ever awarded...... Fair?? No.

Why does this sound so ludicrous?? Because the game WAS being played by the rules according to the time. The points were scored fairly at the time. Everyone was playing the game to the best of their ability as they understood the rules to be at that time. Every time somebody kicked a field goal the score went up.... therefore field goals counted as points.

Every football game afterward would be played according to the new rules, but it is not fair to retroactively take away legitimate points scored during the time the previous rules were in effect. Right?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No other game or hobby would treat thousands and thousands of it's valuable players this way. Every other hobby would grandfather the points as legitimate and then *get on with the game* using the new rules.

I am not against the new rules.... they are fine. I am against (HRH) Jeremy arbitrarily imposing retroactive penalties on people who were playing the game fairly and playing according to the rules at the time.
It is about fairness in the game.

PS --- just because you hate me or hate what I used to do, does not make this a fair action for thousands of other players......
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PeakShift
Geocacher


Joined: 15 Aug 2003

Posts: 28
Location: St. Paul MN

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is about fairness in the game


Yup, and it wasnt fair to anyone to give credit for a find when you werent finding them. The new fix STILL gives you credit for them, by listing them in your profile page, under bugs. It just doesnt "count" them as "found"

So, Again, I must ask - "What "penalty" are you suffering" ?
Loss of the "#1 bug finder in the world"?

So, after all your typing, it really all still boils down to stats.

If it didnt matter, then this would be a non issue - as it is for those who never resorted to this in the first place- Now, its fair to ALL.
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rickrich
Geocacher


Joined: 06 Jul 2003

Posts: 673

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a really easy way to fix this.

gc.com should add a new "Bugs Moved" statistic. That gives everybody who is getting bored with the "sport" something else to compete with, now that Centris is clearly the leading Bug Finder.

While they are at it, they might as well add a count for "McToys exchanged".

And of course, everybodies favorite "Naked Geocacher Sightings".

-Rick
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