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CITO Day Cache - Archived
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s4xton
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 23 Mar 2003

Posts: 1070

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:55 am    Post subject: CITO Day Cache - Archived Reply with quote

The long-running, widely-known, monthly-reoccuring, locationless GC8D14 CITO Day event cache has been archived.

This cache has had a long history. Centris spearheaded the effort, and it became a great way to promote CITO and bring positive awareness to geocaching.

In the future, the MnGCA will have some more structured CITO events with specific places/times.

Also keep in mind that any geocacher can host a CITO event! If you know of a park, trail or other place that needs the help of some geocachers, feel free to set up your own! They are probably the easiest types of events to host (get permission, spread the word, bring a bag/gloves, CITO, and some park systems will even provide trash pickup afterwards!).

Lastly, continue to keep the spirit of the CITO Day cache in mind every time you are out caching.

-Aaron
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Moe the Sleaze
Geocacher


Joined: 10 Jan 2003

Posts: 1145

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just curious... why was this archived?
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s4xton
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 23 Mar 2003

Posts: 1070

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few reasons:

* Some felt that having the CITO Day cache, as a locationless monthly event possibly deters some people from hosting their own CITO Day caches (i.e. "Why should I host a CITO cache when there's that CITO Day cache again the next week?"). We want to promote the idea of individuals hosting their own CITO Events.

* Some on the Board felt that with MnGCA events, the MnGCA should have greater presence and participation. With this, we are going to have more structured MnGCA-sponsored CITO Events, and hopefully more concentrated and more powerful turnout. Now that the MnGCA has grown, we can now make a larger and more noticeable impact with future CITO Events.

* Both the MnGCA and geocaching in general have changed a lot in the recent past and we want to peruse other avenues of geocaching awareness.

* The cache was started and maintained mostly by Centris. Although everything on the cache page may have said it was by "MnGCA," and that it was started by the "MnGCA," it was for the most part, Centris' work. In fact, it was under her account, and not the MnGCA account for most of it's existence. It was her request that the cache get placed back on her personal account, and the Board agreed that it was appropriate.

The actions were agreed upon with a 3-1 vote by the Board (and one Board member not present). They were also agreed upon with Centris directly.

-Aaron
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King Boreas
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 2438

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Great idea for a cache - and may do something like it back home in AZ.


Quote:
While visiting Minnesota we found many caches over the 4 days we were there. Had a lot of fun and learned about lakers game. We always carry a trash bag and CITO where we are caching. We will be attending several event caches in Montana in the next couple of months and will show this to them. Thanks for the great idea.


Quote:
While vacationing in Minnesota this week, we did a fair amount of CITO.


Quote:
We don't cache in Minnesota very often and we thought we would "grab" this cache while we were there on May 5th.


Quote:
First time Geocaching. Took my two boys with (8 & 9), cleaned up a bag of trash, and found a half dozen caches (With the help of King Boreas).
Went and got a GPS as soon as we left.

Had a blast!



Wouldn't have happened if there wasn't a continuous event listed.
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s4xton
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 23 Mar 2003

Posts: 1070

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KB-

I agree.

-Aaron
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Centris
Past MnGCA Chair


Joined: 27 Nov 2002

Posts: 620

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmm.... I have received A LOT of mail concerning the archiving of this cache and this particular thread on the forum. I rarely post on the forums anymore, but some interesting things have been brought up, so I would like to answer them.

Most have asked why I allowed *The Board* to bully me into archiving the CITO day?, and why they get to dictate what happens to the cache? and is this a sign of geo-policing? and will they do it to other caches they declare to be "unacceptable" or in violation of all their new caching regulations? is everyone at risk of having the board secretly vote that their cache is in the way of the groups goals?....... so I ask myself the same questions.

s4xton wrote:
A few reasons:
* Some felt that having the CITO Day cache, as a locationless monthly event possibly deters some people from hosting their own CITO Day caches (i.e. "Why should I host a CITO cache when there's that CITO Day cache again the next week?"). We want to promote the idea of individuals hosting their own CITO Events.

* Some on the Board felt that with MnGCA events, the MnGCA should have greater presence and participation. With this, we are going to have more structured MnGCA-sponsored CITO Events, and hopefully more concentrated and more powerful turnout. Now that the MnGCA has grown, we can now make a larger and more noticeable impact with future CITO Events.


"Some felt" and "Some on the Board" is who???? Who believes the monthly locationless event is detrimental to CITO efforts here in MN?
So where are the new crop of promised CITO caches??? I see "Get Sauced" events and "Breakfast Buddy" events, but no CITOs.

I am an individual MNGCA member and I was hosting a successful CITO event..... MNGCA "promotes" that, right? so the invitation to have a CITO event applies to anyone but me??
Who didn't post their own event just because I had one?? Why can't there be more than one a month or even more than one on the same day? Why can't it be locationless, why does it have to be structured, why can't we have both? CITO is good.

When the archiving decision was first announced to me by s4xton, even I questioned the wisdom of archiving the monthly locationless CITO in the early summer months, but the board had already voted to axe it, so I was ignored. Summer and fall is when any kind of CITO is needed the most .

s4xton wrote:
* The cache was started and maintained mostly by Centris. Although everything on the cache page may have said it was by "MnGCA," and that it was started by the "MnGCA," it was for the most part, Centris' work. In fact, it was under her account, and not the MnGCA account for most of it's existence. It was her request that the cache get placed back on her personal account, and the Board agreed that it was appropriate.


Correction -- The cache was started and maintained by Centris ALONE in September 2002 because of a pro-geocaching interview with the Environmental Journal TV Show involving Centris and King Boreas. It was not always an "event", it was created before there even was a CITO event category. It was later converted to an event to keep it on the front page and keep CITO awareness levels up.

Although everything on the cache page may have said it was by "MnGCA," and that it was started by the "MnGCA," it was ALL Centris' work. That cache was created before the MNGCA even existed and did use to say "by Centris". The reason it was changed to MNGCA later on was because we were a fledgling organization who was trying to impress the county park systems that we were negotiating with. Making them think we was all about cleaning up their parks if they let us in to place caches. It worked, they let us in and it gave a nice environmentally friendly face to the MNGCA, so the designation stayed, but if anyone bothered to click the "by whoever" link - it said Centris.

In fact, it was under my account until it was hijacked without my permission into the MnGCA account in March 2005 (so you see it was not ALWAYS so unacceptable to the board). MNGCA Board had control of it for only 3 months out of the 33 months it was allowed to exist. Of course I wanted it back - It was ALWAYS mine, the only reason I did not aggressivly try to rescue it back was because I foolishly trusted them and thought it would be safe in the hands of the MNGCA and they would continue it.

s4xton wrote:
The actions were agreed upon with a 3-1 vote by the Board (and one Board member not present). They were also agreed upon with Centris directly.

What about the rest of the organization?..... the actual members?
I have gotten plenty of email from people who think that the board exceeded its boundries and purpose and this was a bad decision.

As far as me agreeing to it.... what choice was I given? Not archiving it was never given as an option to me, no appeal offered, the verdict was already made. What they offered was to give it back to be, but when it was transfered back to me it was already archived and dead.... effectively sealing it's fate.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Centris wrote:
So where are the new crop of promised CITO caches??? I see "Get Sauced" events and "Breakfast Buddy" events, but no CITOs.

You know as well as we do that the MnGCA does not host Get Sauced Events. The MnGCA only hosts events that are created under the MnGCA account. Get Sauced Events have never been created, and will never be created, under that account.
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Centris
Past MnGCA Chair


Joined: 27 Nov 2002

Posts: 620

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marsha and Silent Bob wrote:
Centris wrote:
So where are the new crop of promised CITO caches??? I see "Get Sauced" events and "Breakfast Buddy" events, but no CITOs.

You know as well as we do that the MnGCA does not host Get Sauced Events. The MnGCA only hosts events that are created under the MnGCA account. Get Sauced Events have never been created, and will never be created, under that account.

I know that -- but wasn't one of the purposes of archiving the CITO event so that individual cachers would be more likely to host their own events?
Everybody loves the Get Sauced events, everybody loves the Breakfast events.... I was just stating that I saw some of each, but no CITO -- never said it was the MNGCA that hosted them


Last edited by Centris on Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Centris wrote:
I know that -- but wasn't one of the purposes of archiving the CITO event so that individual cachers would be more likely to host their own events?

I just wanted to make sure that the distinction between the hosting of a Breakfast Buddies and a Get Sauced Event was clear.

Quote:
Everybody loves the Get Sauced events, everybody loves the Breakfast events.... I was just stating that I saw some of each, but no CITO -- never said it was the MNGCA that hosted them

Ok. Thanks.

edit: Updated after Centris edited her post
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sui generis
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 17 Apr 2004

Posts: 608

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As far as me agreeing to it.... what choice was I given? Not archiving it was never given as an option to me, no appeal offered, the verdict was already made. What they offered was to give it back to be, but when it was transfered back to me it was already archived and dead.... effectively sealing it's fate.


So what is the big deal? Is there some reason a new one can't be created, or the original can't be unarchived and edited to remove MnGCA references? MNGCA certainly does not have the authority to prevent you from listing any cache that Geocaching.com will approve.

As far as the statement that many nameless people have declared this a bad decision by the board and an overstepping of the boundaries, keep in mind, making these decisions is what a board does. No vote SHOULD be secret, as I believe there are minute keeping requirements. If the board wants to vote that a cache in contrary to the MnGCA, let them. As has been stated many times, they lack the authority to force its removal. Finally, the authority of the board is governed by its bylaws, and where the bylaws are silent, by state law governing non profit corporations. I believe there are ways to force membership votes on issues, as well as to challenge the boards actions when the authority does not exist to act. If people believe it is just a bad decision that they would have made differently, however, they can remember that when next elections roll around.

It almost feels like some fault on the part of the boards integrity is being implied. However, like with decisions of any sort, whether they concern which caches to log, or how to log travel bug finds, or even what decisions the board makes, these are usually more simply differences of opinion that actual wrongdoing on anybodies part.
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Moe the Sleaze
Geocacher


Joined: 10 Jan 2003

Posts: 1145

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought that this cache was owned by Centris but listed under the name "MnGCA" as an alias. That's why I was suprised to see that "the board" archived it.

Centris, I encourage you to adopt it and ask mtn-man to unarchive it. I think this cache served a great purpose and find the argument that it discourged others from hosting CITO events to be laughable.
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Arcticabn
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 30 Nov 2003

Posts: 1846

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sui for President. He's got the politics down pat.
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King Boreas
Geocacher


Joined: 16 Dec 2002

Posts: 2438

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is there some reason a new one can't be created, or the original can't be unarchived {snip}


maybe, and maybe

I could be wrong, but I believe the monthly date change was a special arrangement. I'm not sure if events can be continuous, although I've thought about trying it.

Caches are allowed to exist, but if a cache is archived and does not meet the CURRENT specifications, it will not be un-archived.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

King Boreas wrote:
I could be wrong, but I believe the monthly date change was a special arrangement. I'm not sure if events can be continuous, although I've thought about trying it.

I know that "Wings and Beer" Events in Connecticut are actually just one event page that's reused over and over again. Granted they are run by three people who are GSP reps (i.e. Planet, Mopar, and GeoHo) but they shouldn't be held to any different standards.

Out there they take offense to people logging events multiple times and racking up event stats by creating events like our monthly Breakfast Buddies, so they ask that you log the event once and watch the page for updates on location/time.

If they can have an arrangement like that I don't know why any other event couldn't. If mtn-man wouldn't agree to allow that at least you can always point to the Wings and Beer event page for "prior art".

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=131899
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JT
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 31 Jul 2003

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:40 pm    Post subject: Msg from the President... Reply with quote

On March 26, with a 5-0 vote by the Board, Centris was given the following options:


Quote:
* Transfer the cache back to Centris and Centris maintains this cache as a "Centris" cache, not an "MnGCA" cache.
* Transfer the cache back to Centris and Centris archives the cache, and the MnGCA will decide if they want to start a new monthly CITO cache.
* Keep this cache on the MnGCA account, have the MnGCA continue to maintain it, and edit the description and add a short story about the actual origins of this cache to correct the inaccurate perception that this was created by the MnGCA.


You can choose which of the three options is most appropriate. The board will go with you would like to do.

She chose not to reply. At the next Board meeting this cache was discussed, and then on June 8, Centris was emailed the following:

Quote:
In the MnGCA Board meeting on 06 June 2005, it was approved with majority vote that the following action takes place concerning the CITO Day Locationless Event Cache:

The MnGCA shall archive the existing CITO Day cache two days after the next CITO Day which is listed as Saturday, 11 June 2005. That archival date would be Monday, 13 June 2005.

The MnGCA Board will then have more organized CITO days throughout the year and will also encourage MnGCA Members to host their own CITO events. The Board will remain open to your concerns if you disagree or have a better solution. We are also still willing to go with any of the options that were laid out on 26 March 2005. The Board has not heard back concerning those options. We want to again give you the option to decide the fate of this event.


On June 9, Centris requested that the cache get transferred to her account and archived.

All geocachers are encouraged to organize and create a CITO event for all to attend. The MnGCA will also be organizing future CITO and other social events.

-JT
MnGCA President
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