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Snowmobile Lobbies vs GPS/Geocaching Lobbies
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spinowner
Geocacher


Joined: 25 Nov 2004

Posts: 588

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snowmobiles and ATV's are allowed on some state-owned land but geocaching is thought of as being potentially too destructive. I'd like to hear that explanation.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spinowner wrote:
Snowmobiles and ATV's are allowed on some state-owned land but geocaching is thought of as being potentially too destructive. I'd like to hear that explanation.

Snowmobiles are allowed in National Parks as well. The exhaust is so thick at times it's nauseating.

The explanation is that Snowmobilers (and their sponsoring companies) have a lot more money to sway descisions like this.

See here for some information about how Snowmobile companies are lobbying heavily for allowing their products to be used in Yellowstone more frequently: http://www.wilderness.org/NewsRoom/Release/20040204.cfm

Edit: added link
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Kitch
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 18 May 2003

Posts: 1286

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..so we need to inlist the help of GPS companies for lobbying in favor of geocaching??
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kitch wrote:
..so we need to inlist the help of GPS companies for lobbying in favor of geocaching??

Snowmobile companies have a large userbase of people that are interested in recreational use in parks. GPS companies have a userbase split over a wide range of areas.

It wouldn't be in their best financial interests to lobby for the permission of geocaching in State and Federally protected lands.
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milbank
Geocacher


Joined: 18 Jun 2004

Posts: 25

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It wouldn't be in their best financial interests to lobby for the permission of geocaching in State and Federally protected lands.


Maybe not, but you never know.
My gps has a couple Geocaching Icons. It came that way from Garmin.
I don't see any snowmobile or ATV icon's. Wink
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Rouster
Geocacher


Joined: 04 Jan 2004

Posts: 104

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see any difference between responsible snowmobilers on boundless territory and a few buses on Nicollet mall.

Yes, I own a snowmobile. With about a 1/2 mile ride across public property, I'm on an endless public trail across private and public land.

The private land is contracted by the state. Everybody wins.
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Kitch
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 18 May 2003

Posts: 1286

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GPS companies have a userbase split over a wide range of areas.


...well...I did talk to a VP of Megellan on the phone....he did realize that a majority of their "upgrades" come from geocachers...

...Garmin made the 60 series with geocachers in mind...

...didn't "gellin" make a series with geocachers in mind???...I thought they did...


plus....geocaching is still in an infant stage..compared to about 30 years of snowmobiling.....
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kitch wrote:
...well...I did talk to a VP of Megellan on the phone....he did realize that a majority of their "upgrades" come from geocachers...

...Garmin made the 60 series with geocachers in mind...

...didn't "gellin" make a series with geocachers in mind???...I thought they did...

Just because they made a device with geocachers in mind does NOT mean that it is in their best interests to lobby the Federal/State governments in favor of the geocaching community.

Perhaps if geocaching was outright banned in the country completely they might, but as of right now it's just not that severe of a problem to warrant action like that.
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Kitch
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 18 May 2003

Posts: 1286

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps if geocaching was outright banned in the country completely they might, but as of right now it's just not that severe of a problem to warrant action like that.


Is why a majority of snowmobilers...including myself...didn't get upset when Yellowstone placed the ban.....


but tourism $$$ was one of major issue...
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tomslusher
Geocacher


Joined: 02 Jan 2003

Posts: 182

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marsha and Silent Bob wrote:

Quote:
Snowmobiles are allowed in National Parks as well. The exhaust is so thick at times it's nauseating.


I would like to see a "legitamate" study cited that proves this outlandish claim. All the studies that were used to make this claim were quickly and easily disproved. If you are going to make an argument with "facts" you should use truthful facts. The extreeme environmentalist have been taught this lesson recently when all their claims have been proven false and exagerated.

tomslusher
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please point me to the studies that discredit the decade+ of research (the results of which are hosted by the NPS) which proves that by limiting snowmobile traffic they have limited pollution. I was unable to find any credible research which proved otherwise.

I would love to read the other side's arguments and decide whether or not they are actually credible.
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s4xton
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 23 Mar 2003

Posts: 1070

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silent Bob wrote:
Snowmobiles are allowed in National Parks as well. The exhaust is so thick at times it's nauseating.
tomslusher wrote:
I would like to see a "legitamate" study cited that proves this outlandish claim.


Well, I can't find the study, but perhaps if you need to pump fresh air into ranger booths at a National Park you don't need a study to determine if it's "nauseating" or not.

Quote:
The worst air pollution readings occur at the park's West Entrance at West Yellowstone, where the park service has had to pump fresh air into ranger booths because as many as 2,000 snowmobiles congregate to enter the park each day. That means a snowmobile roars into the park every 30 to 60 seconds


How about respirator masks?

Quote:
...worst of all, they are so polluting that park rangers who work near them have to wear respirator masks.


Do you want a study with facts to find out if these employees actually need to wear them or not? Want a study that proves the necessity to pump fresh air into a building due to snowmobiles?

Think they might be making this stuff up? It would be pretty outlandish if they were.

tomslusher wrote:
The extreeme environmentalist have been taught this lesson recently when all their claims have been proven false and exagerated.


Really? I'd like to read about it.

-Aaron
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pto
Geocacher


Joined: 18 Mar 2004

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly dont have the time now, but Id like to find some "facts" on a few things, such as:

How many cars, SUV's, trucks, campers, RV's and tour bus's pass thru Yellowstone in any given year(month/week/day)?
How much greater is this than the number of snowmobiles entering on any of these described bad days?

How many of those vehicles are deisel ?

What is the pollution to gallons burned on a 35 foot RV, as compared to a snowmobile?

How many more RV's cruise Yellowstone each year, than snowmobiles?

How about cars/SUV's/Trucks/Buses?

Does anybody actually believe snowmobiles (during the relativly short winter riding season, Only) are causing such a Great polution problem when compared to the rest of the year, and against the many times more vehicles?

Oh thats right - familes/old folks/tourists/everyone else are allowed to pollute, since they arent riding a Polaris.

Bonus ?'s : A 4 stroke snowmobile produces ____% LESS emitions than a 60 seat tourist BUS.

How many snowmobiles does it take to produce the same amount
of emissions as a 1 ton deisel FORD dullay, pulling a 30 ft trailer up and down all those hills within the park?
Oh, I forgot to mention all those RV's & campers all run electricity, use running water, and have Septic systems onboard - which are dumped in dumping stations,(or worse)


I guess my point is this: Why are so many people ready to go after snowmobiles, when they ignore the same effects being produced Everyday- except by people Just Like Them? What gives?
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miles58
Geocacher


Joined: 07 Mar 2005

Posts: 196

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I guess my point is this: Why are so many people ready to go after snowmobiles, when they ignore the same effects being produced Everyday- except by people Just Like Them? What gives?


Might just be a case of which church you go to syndrome mixed in with reality.

Older noisier two cycle sleds smoke and stink and move one person/sled.

The people on the tour buses look out the windows and see a beautiful bountiful place unfold before them, and could not possibly comprehend what *they* look like to the backpacker back in the trees that they cannot see.

Everyone is familiar with being out when it's so quiet when the snow is falling and having a sled come roaring by. Even a snowmobiler riding a trail slowly and stopping at all crossings presents a lot of noise impact. maybe the moreso if it's a two cycle and has to wind up to get moving from a stop.

Geocaching policies that limit caches to not more than twenty five feet from a trail fail to make use of all of the land, and by thir nature cause more impact on a smaller area. Simple observation will demonstrate that the further away a destination is, the more ways you can/will have to get there. They don't go to our church, they can't see what it is we are doing, and why it is we do it.

I've been through this many times with land managers while negotiating permission to run horseback field trials for pointing dogs. "You want to bring in a bunch of horses to follow your dogs around while they harrass my birds?" "You want to do this on how many thousand acres?"
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sui generis
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 17 Apr 2004

Posts: 608

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also the problem that while there are emmissions standards for the dually, the tour bus, the RV, and the car that are going through the park, there really aren't any for the snowmobile (unless taht status has been changed recently, last I heard, the minor ones they put into effect were thrown out by the courts). 2 cycle engines do create the biggest problem, because a good chunk of the fuel passes through the engine unburned, and there is also oil being burned in the system, producing that lovely haze.

I found it disturbing that the snowmobile manufacturers and the other snowmobile special interest groups are fighting tooth and nail to keep emmissions standards either down, or completely out. The technology is available to make the sleds burn A LOT cleaner. Why not mandate its use? MONEY!

However, it is probably true that it is inconsiderate users who create the biggest problem, as with any activity, geocaching included. Like the idiot with the RV who parks next to my tent campsite, puts out a dish so he can watch television, and then lets his generator run all night long while he yells drunkenly at his wife to make more margaritas at 12:30 AM.

Or the snowmobile enthusiast who isn't out to enjoy the scenery, but is out to see how inhumanly fast he can go, how much snow he can kick up, etc.

Or the kid with the pickup truck who has decided that everyone in the free world would like to hear his music. Or better yet, his engine, so he puts in a muffler system that can be heard for miles!

Or, the geocacher, who in his or her zeal, runs across private property in the middle of the night, and then, with a "take no prisoners" bulldozer mentality, drops on the cache zone like an atomic bomb, shredding all dead fall and vegetation within a 50 foot radius of grouind zero.
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