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On going COTM discussions
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sui generis
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 17 Apr 2004

Posts: 608

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I did do this awhile back when the cache of the month was written up by Towelbooth


Given that you state you did do it, and it is not still being done, then I can only assume that it didn't work.

Also, it isn't the unsolicited suggestions that get old, so much as the people who seem to keep submitting them over and over again. Your suggestion was heard the first time. Either implement it yourself (which apparently didn't work, so why would it work if someone else does it Rolling Eyes ) or let it go.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomslusher wrote:
Quote:
Seems a lot of people always want something changed, but expect someone else to do it for them

I did do this awhile back when the cache of the month was written up by Towelbooth. I also offered a few suggestions if you would go back and look at my past logs, but I guess they were "unsolicited" so they are meaningless.

Well, I went through all your past posts (there were only 63 of them) and I saw only one post in the past during Towlebooth's tenure as COTM "master" and found: http://www.mngca.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4431#4431

Quote:
I only vote if I visit at least one of the caches that are nominated. Anyone could write up an eloquent story about a cache and make it sound like the best ever.

While at the time mentioning that you would only vote for a cache that you had been to was a new idea it has been repeated over and over again since.

Yeah, anyone can writeup a COTM nomination and make it sound like the best ever but at least they spent the time to do so. Maybe they really did think the cache was one of the best they had done and they seriously believed that others would think the same -- remember the greatest thing about caching is that everyone has their own game to play.

You could have written up at least 5 COTM nominations for caches in your neck of the woods that I would have never known about in the same amount of time that you wrote your posts here.
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Pear Head
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 04 Apr 2004

Posts: 5699

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow... This has turned a little...volitile...since I looked last yesterday. Crying or Very sad

As I see it, we right now are submitting (or soliciting submissions) for COTM writeups from anywhere in the state. At the end of the month we vote on the submissions. Most of the controversy doesn't appear to be with the writeups (I don't think I've seen anyone complain about the fact that there are writeups, maybe only the LACK OF writeups, which a large majority of us are probably at fault with). The controversy appears to be over the voting.

Let's examine the options. Towlebooth suggested that there be a vote before any changes are made. May I suggest that we outline the options for a vote then?

Arrow 1. Status Quo.
Arrow 2. Eliminate the voting, just continue to post the writeups, perhaps one per month or perhaps as they are submitted
Arrow 3. Change the voting to something less frequent so as to get more submissions to choose from and more time for people to visit the said caches.
Arrow 4. Change the voting to something more regional. The frequency of the votes would also probably have to be changed as Silent Bob doesn't receive enough submissions to support this on a monthly basis.

The problems that I see with #2 and #3 is that it will probably lead to a continued dropoff in submissions.

I personally would like to see #4 implemented, on a quarterly basis.

- Pear Head
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pear Head wrote:
Arrow 4. Change the voting to something more regional. The frequency of the votes would also probably have to be changed as Silent Bob doesn't receive enough submissions to support this on a monthly basis.

I personally would like to see #4 implemented, on a quarterly basis.

We can't enforce regional voting on the board and it really doesn't make sense as some of us cache all over the place. We get ~13 votes on average. So if we do this quarterly we will have 4 submissions instead of 8 because I will only be nominating one cache in the quarter (remember I compose ~50% of the nominations monthly). Three people will vote for each cache offered and three others will whine that they can only vote for one because they didn't do the other three and we would not have solved anything.
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sui generis
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 17 Apr 2004

Posts: 608

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We can't enforce regional voting on the board


I don't think the point is to restrict voting to the particular region, so much as to allow each region to showcase itself. This would also spread the responsibility around. There is no reason 1 person in each region can't take charge and run a COTM or quarter, or whatever for their region. Also, limiting submissions to regions should limit the complaints that people can't travel that far to visit every nominated cache and make an informed decision. The topics could be handled under each of the regional forums. If a certain region lacks interest, they don't have to participate. If a person visits a great cache in another region, they can nominate it there. As far as number of voters go, whether 3 people are voting, or 8 are voting, it is still a really low turnout. Maybe if all the caches nominated were in the same region, people could visit them and then cast a vote easier than having nominations spread across the state. In theory, this could actually cause an increase in voter turnout (not holding my breath).

I don't believe increasing the time of voting will help anything. For those who are going to visit caches, a month is more than enough time. Sure, weather plays a role, but I think most of the issue is motivation, and people who don't get out in a month are probably not going to do it in 2 or 3 either.

As far as getting rid of the voting altogether, some people like it and some don't. As long as some like it, it should stay. Those who don't like it, simply don't need to vote. The information on good caches is still present whether they choose to vote or not.

I am also fine with status quo. This is, after all, SB's project. He is not required to do it, and he can pretty much do it the way he wants, same as any other person on these forums can open a topic and, for example, create a "Blackwell's list" of worst caches if they want, or "Best caches in Duluth", or whatever.

If this does go to a vote, Pearhead's well organized list seems to be right on the money. Thanks Pearhead.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sui generis wrote:
Also, limiting submissions to regions should limit the complaints that people can't travel that far to visit every nominated cache and make an informed decision.

Argh, I cannot make myself more clear on this. How can a regional vote succeed when a state wide vote cannot get more than one submission a month (4 a quarter). I would *love* to be proven wrong but I just don't see more than 1 a quarter coming from any of the out-state areas *combined*. Remember that the two more recent entries that were from outstate were nominated by people from the metro (pogopod nominated eagleyes' BASS LAKE VISTA and I nominated IBCrashen's Dark Passage).

Plus making regional submissions and voting makes no sense when I have been endlessly advocating that out-staters write submissions to showcase excellent caches in their area so that people will know which ones to do.

Quote:
In theory, this could actually cause an increase in voter turnout (not holding my breath).

Considering the viewership of this site from the out-staters is as low as it is (I think there were 34 people since Feb 28th, 2005) that visited from either areas that were unknown to me (possibly out of state) or listed as non-metro areas (and I was including areas like team-deadheadland as being non-metro) I have a feeling that not only will the voting be low but the chance of an acceptable number of nominations will also be low.

Quote:
I don't believe increasing the time of voting will help anything. For those who are going to visit caches, a month is more than enough time. Sure, weather plays a role, but I think most of the issue is motivation, and people who don't get out in a month are probably not going to do it in 2 or 3 either.

I agree. Either people are interested in caching outside of their 10mi radius or they are not. People in the metro won't even drive 20 mi to come south of the river when there are 61 caches within 5 miles of Apple Valley. You think that they are going to drive 165 miles north to Duluth or 100+ miles south to Winona even though the cache quality there is above and beyond the 1000 micros in the woods in the metro?

Quote:
If this does go to a vote, Pearhead's well organized list seems to be right on the money

I have no problem with it going to a vote. If the method changes and people want something regional, quarterly, a combination of both, etc, then so be it. Don't expect anyone to stick their neck out and take over the handling of that though. We can't even get three people to write up a two paragraph submission once a month I just can't see three people taking over posting quartly submissions to the regional forums and then formatting the result for me to post to the front page.

YMMV.
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sui generis
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 17 Apr 2004

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right, however, if we go to a regional format, then you only have to listen to complaints concerning the twin cities region. This would put the onus on those from other regions to handle their regions if they are interested. The big drawback is when none of these regions is picked up, cachers all over the state are unable to read submissions concerning good caches in those areas. Again, status quo in this situation doesn't bother me. Going to a regional program would simply reduce the burden on one person. Given that there are a shortage of submissions even when the whole state is fair game, you are right, it would not likely work in the end. However, people could no longer gripe about unfair representation of certain areas, etc.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sui generis wrote:
The big drawback is when none of these regions is picked up, cachers all over the state are unable to read submissions concerning good caches in those areas.

We would still be able to read them if they actually were written up.

Quote:
However, people could no longer gripe about unfair representation of certain areas, etc.

Well, I wasn't aware of that gripe but they only have themselves to blame in the current format and that would not change in any other.
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sui generis
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We would still be able to read them if they actually were written up.


If the region is not picked up, it is inferred that no submissions will be collected or published for that region. Thus, we would be unable to read submissions for that area because they would be nonexistent.
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Moe the Sleaze
Geocacher


Joined: 10 Jan 2003

Posts: 1146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all. I've only read enough of this thread to get the gist of it. I haven't read it thoroughly enough to absorb all of the details.

In the past, I have participated in the COTM process, both as a voter and nominater. However, for the past few months I haven't. The whole concept of COTM started to rub me the wrong way the more I thought about it and the discussion here has only made me feel stronger that way.

That said, I would like to make a proposal for your consideration...

Eliminate the COTM concept altogether and replace it with a new area on this board for people to submit write-ups about caches that really excite them for whatever reason. Each cache would have its own thread for follow-on discussion but the threads would me moderated to keep them on topic. People could submit as many cache write-ups as they want, as often as they want.

Watchya think?
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jaywc7
Geocacher


Joined: 13 Sep 2004

Posts: 360

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not read all the posts either. After reading a few, I realized that there was a definate tone to this and choose not to participate...

Only after reading this one did I decided to post again:

Quote:
Eliminate the COTM concept altogether and replace it with a new area on this board for people to submit write-ups about caches that really excite them for whatever reason. Each cache would have its own thread for follow-on discussion but the threads would me moderated to keep them on topic. People could submit as many cache write-ups as they want, as often as they want.


I'd just like to say that if it counts for anything, I seccond this idea...
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towlebooth
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 26 Nov 2002

Posts: 1270

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moe the Sleaze wrote:

In the past, I have participated in the COTM process, both as a voter and nominater. However, for the past few months I haven't. The whole concept of COTM started to rub me the wrong way the more I thought about it and the discussion here has only made me feel stronger that way.


Thanks for the help and participation in the past, Moe. Sorry we have lost your support.

Moe the Sleaze wrote:

That said, I would like to make a proposal for your consideration...

Eliminate the COTM concept altogether and replace it with a new area on this board for people to submit write-ups about caches that really excite them for whatever reason. Each cache would have its own thread for follow-on discussion but the threads would me moderated to keep them on topic. People could submit as many cache write-ups as they want, as often as they want.
Watchya think?


My problem with this is that we lose the publication of it on the main page. Many visitors never get in here or choose not to visit here very often but read everything on the front page.

I have no problem with people creating a thread showcasing great caches. We could do this without scraping the COTM.
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Moe the Sleaze
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Joined: 10 Jan 2003

Posts: 1146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="towlebooth"]
Moe the Sleaze wrote:
My problem with this is that we lose the publication of it on the main page. Many visitors never get in here or choose not to visit here very often but read everything on the front page.


Why couldn't you post a link to that section of the boards on the main page?
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towlebooth
Past MnGCA Board


Joined: 26 Nov 2002

Posts: 1270

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moe the Sleaze wrote:


Why couldn't you post a link to that section of the boards on the main page?


Sure, a link is easy. The lure of a new headline and article is quite a bit more powerful than a link that has been there for six months.
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Marsha and Silent Bob
Past MnGCA President


Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 6261

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

towlebooth wrote:
The lure of a new headline and article is quite a bit more powerful than a link that has been there for six months.

I like to believe that the format on the main page is a bit better looking than the standard phpBB forum posts.
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